MH370 Shabbos Story Discussion

[wayfe]

Have you ever seen plaques, letters displayed in hospitals of patients thanking their doctors for caring for them and curing them of an illness? Is that insensitive to all those who died in hospitals?

[AJK]

Nope, tell me:

Do those doctors run around the ICU wing of the hospital, within ear shot of terminal patients and their families, using a fog horn to announce they saved patients lives?

[wayfe]

Nope, tell me:

Do those doctors run around the ICU wing of the hospital, within ear shot of terminal patients and their families, using a fog horn to announce they saved patients lives?

No, but they do toot their horns often enough. And the former patients and their families will surely talk of it ad nauseum.

I had a brother who was in the hospital for most of his 15 year life. There were tons of such letters plastered all over the hospital walls. I never once found them insensitive and still don't, now 6 years later. I am not pulling a pity card here, simply showing that I do have some experience that can allow me to somewhat understand people in that situation.

And yeah, this might be a bit technical- but was there one person who lost somebody on that plane who read Dan's post? So the "within earshot of terminally ill patients" bit doesn't fit.

I'll repeat myself again, 1 person's fate doesn't reflect on anybody else's.

[AJK]

No, but they do toot their horns often enough. And the former patients and their families will surely talk of it ad nauseum.

I had a brother who was in the hospital for most of his 15 year life. There were tons of such letters plastered all over the hospital walls. I never once found them insensitive and still don't, now 6 years later. I am not pulling a pity card here, simply showing that I do have some experience that can allow me to somewhat understand people in that situation.

And yeah, this might be a bit technical- but was there one person who lost somebody on that plane who read Dan's post? So the "within earshot of terminally ill patients" bit doesn't fit.

I'll repeat myself again, 1 person's fate doesn't reflect on anybody else's.

Are you kidding me?

That post has been picked up by Chinese media outlets.

Further, you continually act as if you operate (and the post operates) in a vacuum. It does not.

[wayfe]

Are you kidding me?

That post has been picked up by Chinese media outlets.

Further, you continually act as if you operate (and the post operates) in a vacuum. It does not.

I'm sorry. I didn't know that. But then again it doesn't matter if it is the biggest Chinese media outlet or some teenage blogger in his basement.
If people are pulling the wrong conclusions/post intent from the blog... that's their fault.

[AJK]

So now you'd fault the families if they found this post insensitive. Wowza.

[wayfe]

So now you'd fault the families if they found this post insensitive. Wowza.

Yes. And after all the back and forth- why would they find it insensitive?

They suffered a huge, inexplainable loss. I feel for them, and mourn with them for the demise of 239 precious human beings. But that one case doesn't reflect upon them at all.

[DBK]

Are you kidding me?

That post has been picked up by Chinese media outlets.

Further, you continually act as if you operate (and the post operates) in a vacuum. It does not.

IYO do you feel the situation would have been remedied with either an introductory or closing statement wishing condolences to those who loved ones have not been found and the thoughts and prayers are with them for this incredibly tragic loss. And then go into the story with this one individual and how he was luckily saved.

[moish]

-10000000000000

What exactly was his VALID point?!

im not going to get into a hashkafic debate with you, but i might believe that shabbos protects if you keep it. clearly this guy doesnt and its very likely that not going on the flight caused more chillul shabbos in which case it would be preposterous to claim that shabbos saved him

theres more to shabbos observance than eating gefilte fish in a chabad house

but sure, its definitely a feel good story

[yoshi]

im not going to get into a hashkafic debate with you, but i might believe that shabbos protects if you keep it. clearly this guy doesnt and its very likely that not going on the flight caused more chillul shabbos in which case it would be preposterous to claim that shabbos saved him

theres more to shabbos observance than eating gefilte fish in a chabad house

but sure, its definitely a feel good story

A non frum person (whether he's like that due to ignorance, or since he was brought up that way) is considered a תינוק שנשבה. That being said, when he didn't fly that plane on shabbos because it was shabbos, it is a very big זכות. It is possible that he didn't keep shabbos properly that week, although maybe he did, but nevertherless since he didn't fly because it was shabbos that is יקר by hashem. Technically speaking a תינוק שנשבה is פטור. Yet he still didn't fly on shabbos! Who are we to judge that since MAYBE he didn't keep shabbos that week, it isn't יקר by hashem that he didn't fly?! Every time a yid does something for Hashem that turns over עולומות. It gives hashem the biggest נחת רוח!

[wayfe]

Aish.com just quoted the article, with a title that maybe puts it in a nicer perspective "One Tragedy Averted"

http://www.aish.com/jw/s/Tragedy-Averted.html

[moish]

A non frum person (whether he's like that due to ignorance, or since he was brought up that way) is considered a תינוק שנשבה. That being said, when he didn't fly that plane on shabbos because it was shabbos, it is a very big זכות. It is possible that he didn't keep shabbos properly that week, although maybe he did, but nevertherless since he didn't fly because it was shabbos that is יקר by hashem. Technically speaking a תינוק שנשבה is פטור. Yet he still didn't fly on shabbos! Who are we to judge that since MAYBE he didn't keep shabbos that week, it isn't יקר by hashem that he didn't fly?! Every time a yid does something for Hashem that turns over עולומות. It gives hashem the biggest נחת רוח!

look, i absolutely disagree with you, but probably because we have different hashkafic backgrounds. i dont expect you to change your hashkafah, but you should at least be open minded to the idea that someone has a different hashkafah than you.

i dont really see merit in someone not taking a flight on shabbos and then proceeds to drive a car. (not saying he did, just bringing out the point). to suggest that shabbos saved him in that scenario (plane vs car in a hypothetical case) might be considered by some as being ludicrous

[yoshi]

look, i absolutely disagree with you, but probably because we have different hashkafic backgrounds. i dont expect you to change your hashkafah, but you should at least be open minded to the idea that someone has a different hashkafah than you.

i dont really see merit in someone not taking a flight on shabbos and then proceeds to drive a car. (not saying he did, just bringing out the point). to suggest that shabbos saved him in that scenario might be considered by some as being ludicrous

Yea I guess we have different hashkofos.
No hard feelings though.

[Freddie]

Aish.com just quoted the article, with a title that maybe puts it in a nicer perspective "One Tragedy Averted"

http://www.aish.com/jw/s/Tragedy-Averted.html

Yes, and please look at the comments. People are not impressed.

It's a special skill to be able to use a hashgacha pratis story to be merachek yidden... on a kiruv site no less!

[etech0]

Well they emailed it out to all aish branches, and got plenty of positive feedback from people who got chizuk from it...

[wayfe]

Yes, and please look at the comments. People are not impressed.

It's a special skill to be able to use a hashgacha pratis story to be merachek yidden... on a kiruv site no less!

Comments are usually negative. Most people probably read it and think "nice story" and move on without reading the comments. And I'm willing to bet that the commenter who complained read about first on Dansdeals and is trolling.

[MarkS]

If someone came over to me and told me that he missed a flight like this because his nose was running and he went to get tissues I would be blown away. It would make headlines and I would share it with all of my friends.

Why is it any worse that he was engaged in an religious observance activity?

[wayfe]

That post has been picked up by Chinese media outlets.

A google search with the words "Dansdeals" "malaysia flight" and limited to results within the last 24 hours shows the article only picked up by Jewish sites.

[AJK]

Hmmm... I bet you searched in English, huh?

[AJK]

If someone came over to me and told me that he missed a flight like this because his nose was running and he went to get tissues I would be blown away. It would make headlines and I would share it with all of my friends.

Why is it any worse that he was engaged in an religious observance activity?

Surely, you're not that naive.