MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag

[etech0]

True, just as you shouldn't be too lenient on yourself you should also not be too harsh on yourself.

+1 and I'm not Lubavitch

[PlatinumGuy]

We also believe that  if Hashem lets Beis Din do something to a person, it's because He wants it to happen. No?

Seriously? So it's ok if BD punishes someone mistakenly because if they do clearly that's what G-d wants?

We don't have to worry about these things; there's Someone else in charge...

According to that logic, we don't have to learn torah at all

[etech0]

Seriously? So it's ok if BD punishes someone mistakenly because if they do clearly that's what G-d wants?

According to that logic, we don't have to learn torah at all

1. If they do their full hishtadlus in trying to ascertain whether or not someone deserves punishment, then yes, they are not at fault. We can only control our hishtadlus, the results are not in our hands. There are sources for this but I don't remember what they are at this hour. I keep thinking of Chovos Halevavos, though, so maybe that's it.

2. Why on earth would you say that?

[Myccrabbi]

1. If they do their full hishtadlus in trying to ascertain whether or not someone deserves punishment, then yes, they are not at fault. We can only control our hishtadlus, the results are not in our hands. There are sources for this but I don't remember what they are at this hour. I keep thinking of Chovos Halevavos, though, so maybe that's it.

2. Why on earth would you say that?

1. +1
2. +1000

[HP58]

There are sources for this but I don't remember what they are at this hour. I keep thinking of Chovos Halevavos, though, so maybe that's it.

IINM the Ramban says something to that effect in Parshas Ki Seitzei about Eidim Zomemim.

[PlatinumGuy]

Why on earth would you say that?

You said we don't have to worry about understanding how Schar Vonesh works since 'Gd is taking care of it'

You can apply the same logic to absolve yourself from understanding anything in the torah

[etech0]

You said we don't have to worry about understanding how Schar Vonesh works since 'Gd is taking care of it'

You can apply the same logic to absolve yourself from understanding anything in the torah

wrong. read my post again.

[etech0]

IINM the Ramban says something to that effect in Parshas Ki Seitzei about Eidim Zomemim.

Sounds familiar - thanks!

[yoshi]

The story of נצחוני בני נצחוני. Torah is paskened down Here.

[ushdadude]

It can happen that a person does something that was not a bechira decision. There's no way we can judge what other people do.

The only recording of this I can think of is when Hashem hardened Paraoh's heart and all the meforshim have a hard time with that.

[HP58]

The only recording of this I can think of is when Hashem hardened Paraoh's heart and all the meforshim have a hard time with that.

True. But we still can't judge others. Think R' Dessler's Nekudas Habechira...

[ushdadude]

True. But we still can't judge others. Think R' Dessler's Nekudas Habechira...

I'm not judging anyone. I was just commenting on:
 

It can happen that a person does something that was not a bechira decision. There's no way we can judge what other people do.

If he decided to skip town, of course it was a bechira decision. No judgment intended

[etech0]

True. But we still can't judge others. Think R' Dessler's Nekudas Habechira...

+1

And we can't judge ourselves based on outcome, only based on whether we think we did enough hishtadlus in any particular situation.

[etech0]

I'm not judging anyone. I was just commenting on:
 
If he decided to skip town, of course it was a bechira decision. No judgment intended

Not necessarily. (I don't know anything about this particular story) but there is a concept of a person being in so much pain that he's not accountable for his "decisions", because it was beyond his nekudas habechira.

[HP58]

If he decided to skip town, of course it was a bechira decision. No judgment intended

Yup. I agree with that. Unless of course he's ill...

[etech0]

Yup. I agree with that. Unless of course he's ill...

There you go. And how could we know?

[ushdadude]

Yup. I agree with that. Unless of course he's ill...

Not necessarily. (I don't know anything about this particular story) but there is a concept of a person being in so much pain that he's not accountable for his "decisions", because it was beyond his nekudas habechira.

Not being in the right state of mind and being ill are not necessarily the same thing. But like you pointed out, nobody knows anything about this story so we shouldn't/can't comment.

[etech0]

Not being in the right state of mind and being ill are not necessarily the same thing.

Right, and in any case it could be either that is driving someone's decision. The point is that we don't know, and thus, can't judge.

[ushdadude]

Right, and in any case it could be either that is driving someone's decision. The point is that we don't know, and thus, can't judge.

Fair enough

[etech0]

Fair enough

Great!

Now we just have to keep davening for him...