MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag

[smee123]

simanim have to be him not his belongings. They can use dental, DNA etc.

How do you think they did it in the past??

[churnbabychurn]

How do you think they did it in the past??

rivers of ink

[HP58]

BD"E

rivers of ink

They didn't just bury the issue under mounds of halachic jargon. There apparently is a basis for being matir through belongings too, no?

[ushdadude]

Tragic. Wish he could've sought help

You're making a big assumption

[churnbabychurn]

BD"E They didn't just bury the issue under mounds of halachic jargon. There apparently is a basis for being matir through belongings too, no?

yes of course. Just not necessarily called a siman muvhak.

[HP58]

yes of course. Just not necessarily called a siman muvhak.

Yeah. Necessarily being the operative word.
You had me confused:

simanim have to be him not his belongings. They can use dental, DNA etc.
Obviously everything is ymmv

[churnbabychurn]

Yeah. Necessarily being the operative word.
You had me confused:

the point was that its a complicated issue and it would be interesting to hear what ends up to be the heter.

A body is deemed unrecognizable after 3 days and personal belongings are circumstantial (ish)...

[noturbizniss]

the point was that its a complicated issue and it would be interesting to hear what ends up to be the heter.

A body is deemed unrecognizable after 3 days and personal belongings are circumstantial (ish)...

And DNA? Dental records?  Any rav worth his salt would allow that.  Fact is the science is more reliable than any witness's recollection. Memory is subjective. DNA is not.

[metziah]

I don't think lehalacha we use DNA as proof.
I once heard this cmiir

[churnbabychurn]

And DNA? Dental records?  Any rav worth his salt would allow that.  Fact is the science is more reliable than any witness's recollection. Memory is subjective. DNA is not.

most poskim recognize DNA as evidence, very few use it as a siman muvhak.

[HP58]

most poskim recognize DNA as evidence, very few use it as a siman muvhak.

Very interesting. Because of lack of precedent or margin of error?

[churnbabychurn]

Very interesting. Because of lack of precedent or margin of error?

above my pay grade

[Shkop]

Does anyone know his full name, to learn l'eylui nishmaso?

[BigDanFan]

I don't work in a morgue. But in a week, in this weather, wouldn't that be unlikely? They are able to identify the body pretty fast.

True. There shouldn't be a need for dental records or DNA tests.
Most days have been around freezing, so all should be intact. (IMO, even for a month..)

[churnbabychurn]

True. There shouldn't be a need for dental records or DNA tests.
Most days have been around freezing, so all should be intact. (IMO, even for a month..)

generally halach does not allow this after 3 days.

[BigDanFan]

generally halach does not allow this after 3 days.

really? Even if it's been 20 degrees all week and all is frozen and identical to the day he drove off,
and 3 men/Rabbis from his shul and his wife all positively identify him?

[Baruch]

I don't think lehalacha we use DNA as proof.
I once heard this cmiir

There's a long article in Yeshurun about it. IIRC Rav Elyashiv and the 9/11 Bais Din (Rabbis Eli Ber Wachtfogel, Eliyahu Levine, Avremel Bromberg) held it was a siman. The lomdus of the shaalah is - if DNA is 100,000 simanim baininim and if so can't be used for Aguna, or is it one big siman muvhak and can be used.

[BigDanFan]

There's a long article in Yeshurun about it. IIRC Rav Elyashiv and the 9/11 Bais Din (Rabbis Eli Ber Wachtfogel, Eliyahu Levine, Avremel Bromberg) held it was a siman. The lomdus of the shaalah is - if DNA is 100,000 simanim baininim and if so can't be used for Aguna, or is it one big siman muvhak and can be used.

That's not the case here. This is an almost frozen, intact body with (almost?) all identifiable features,
in his own car, within his city less than 10 days old.

(This is not a man out at war in the desert after 6 months of disintegration in the heat with DNA molecules as the only 'survivor'.)

[Baruch]

That's not the case here. This is an almost frozen, intact body with (almost?) all identifiable features,
in his own car, within his city less than 10 days old.

(This is not a man out at war in the desert after 6 months of disintegration in the heat with DNA molecules as the only 'survivor'.)

I have no clue to the facts of this specific case. I was responding to the general halachic viability of DNA.

[churnbabychurn]

That's not the case here. This is an almost frozen, intact body with (almost?) all identifiable features,
in his own car, within his city less than 10 days old.

(This is not a man out at war in the desert after 6 months of disintegration in the heat with DNA molecules as the only 'survivor'.)

Please, its a shulchan oruch.

אֵין מְעִידִין עָלָיו, אֶלָּא אִם כֵּן מְצָאוּהוּ תּוֹךְ שְׁלשָׁה יָמִים אַחַר הֲרֵגָתוֹ אוֹ אַחַר מִיתָתוֹ, אֲבָל אַחַר שְׁלשָׁה אֵין מְעִידִין עָלָיו, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁפַּרְצוּף פָּנָיו מִשְׁתַּנֶּה. בַּמֶּה דְּבָרִים אֲמוּרִים, בִּזְמַן שֶׁהוּא בַּיַּבָּשָׁה. אֲבָל אִם טָבַע בַּמַּיִם וְהִשְׁלִיכוּהוּ הַמַּיִם לַיַּבָּשָׁה, אֲפִלּוּ אַחַר כַּמָּה יָמִים, אִם הִכִּירוּהוּ מְעִידִין עָלָיו, שֶׁאֵינוֹ מִשְׁתַּנֶּה בַּמַּיִם אֶלָּא אַחַר זְמַן מְרֻבֶּה. וְהוּא שֶׁיִּרְאוּהוּ מִיָּד כְּשֶׁהֶעֱלוּהוּ מִן הַמַּיִם, וְגַם שֶׁלֹּא יִהְיֶה בּוֹ מַכָּה, אֲבָל אִם שָׁהָה אַחַר שֶׁהֻשְׁלַךְ מִן הַמַּיִם, אֵין מְעִידִין עָלָיו, אֲפִלּוּ תּוֹךְ ג' (ב''י בְּשֵׁם הָרַמְבַּ''ן וְהָרַשְׁבָּ''א). וְכֵן אִם הָיָה בּוֹ מַכָּה, אֵין מְעִידִין עָלָיו, לְפִי שֶׁהַמַּיִם מְקַלְקְלִים הַמַּכָּה וְנוֹפֵחַ וּמִשְׁתַּנֶּה. הגה: סָפֵק אִם נִשְׁתַּהָה אוֹ לֹא, אָזְלִינָן לְחֻמְרָא וַאֲפִלּוּ אִם נִשֵּׂאת תֵּצֵא (רִיבָ''שׁ סִי' ש''פ). וְכָל זֶה לְהָעִיד עָלָיו בִּטְבִיעוּת עַיִן, אֲבָל עַל יְדֵי סִימָנִים מֻבְהָקִים, אֲפִלּוּ אִשְׁתַּהֵי מַתִּירִין אִשְׁתּוֹ (טוּר וּב''י