Author Topic: MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag  (Read 27334 times)

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Re: MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag
« Reply #100 on: March 23, 2014, 10:25:55 PM »
Please, its a shulchan oruch.
+1
אֵין מְעִידִין עָלָיו, אֶלָּא אִם כֵּן מְצָאוּהוּ תּוֹךְ שְׁלשָׁה יָמִים אַחַר הֲרֵגָתוֹ אוֹ אַחַר מִיתָתוֹ, אֲבָל אַחַר שְׁלשָׁה אֵין מְעִידִין עָלָיו, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁפַּרְצוּף פָּנָיו מִשְׁתַּנֶּה. בַּמֶּה דְּבָרִים אֲמוּרִים, בִּזְמַן שֶׁהוּא בַּיַּבָּשָׁה. אֲבָל אִם טָבַע בַּמַּיִם וְהִשְׁלִיכוּהוּ הַמַּיִם לַיַּבָּשָׁה, אֲפִלּוּ אַחַר כַּמָּה יָמִים, אִם הִכִּירוּהוּ מְעִידִין עָלָיו, שֶׁאֵינוֹ מִשְׁתַּנֶּה בַּמַּיִם אֶלָּא אַחַר זְמַן מְרֻבֶּה. וְהוּא שֶׁיִּרְאוּהוּ מִיָּד כְּשֶׁהֶעֱלוּהוּ מִן הַמַּיִם, וְגַם שֶׁלֹּא יִהְיֶה בּוֹ מַכָּה, אֲבָל אִם שָׁהָה אַחַר שֶׁהֻשְׁלַךְ מִן הַמַּיִם, אֵין מְעִידִין עָלָיו, אֲפִלּוּ תּוֹךְ ג' (ב''י בְּשֵׁם הָרַמְבַּ''ן וְהָרַשְׁבָּ''א). וְכֵן אִם הָיָה בּוֹ מַכָּה, אֵין מְעִידִין עָלָיו, לְפִי שֶׁהַמַּיִם מְקַלְקְלִים הַמַּכָּה וְנוֹפֵחַ וּמִשְׁתַּנֶּה. הגה: סָפֵק אִם נִשְׁתַּהָה אוֹ לֹא, אָזְלִינָן לְחֻמְרָא וַאֲפִלּוּ אִם נִשֵּׂאת תֵּצֵא (רִיבָ''שׁ סִי' ש''פ). וְכָל זֶה לְהָעִיד עָלָיו בִּטְבִיעוּת עַיִן, אֲבָל עַל יְדֵי סִימָנִים מֻבְהָקִים, אֲפִלּוּ אִשְׁתַּהֵי מַתִּירִין אִשְׁתּוֹ (טוּר וּב''י

#1 - The 3 days is referring to "בַּיַּבָּשָׁה"
   In this case however, it's similar to "מִן הַמַּיִם" because it's been under the freezing mark of 32 degrees most days, so facial features are as intact as if submerged under water as S"A mentions...

#2 - The end explains that if features are intact and recognizable, then she is matir..

(however, the wound part, I have no idea - impact, location/condition of car, collision, etc..)
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Re: MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag
« Reply #101 on: March 23, 2014, 10:30:31 PM »
+1
אֵין מְעִידִין עָלָיו, אֶלָּא אִם כֵּן מְצָאוּהוּ תּוֹךְ שְׁלשָׁה יָמִים אַחַר הֲרֵגָתוֹ אוֹ אַחַר מִיתָתוֹ, אֲבָל אַחַר שְׁלשָׁה אֵין מְעִידִין עָלָיו, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁפַּרְצוּף פָּנָיו מִשְׁתַּנֶּה. בַּמֶּה דְּבָרִים אֲמוּרִים, בִּזְמַן שֶׁהוּא בַּיַּבָּשָׁה. אֲבָל אִם טָבַע בַּמַּיִם וְהִשְׁלִיכוּהוּ הַמַּיִם לַיַּבָּשָׁה, אֲפִלּוּ אַחַר כַּמָּה יָמִים, אִם הִכִּירוּהוּ מְעִידִין עָלָיו, שֶׁאֵינוֹ מִשְׁתַּנֶּה בַּמַּיִם אֶלָּא אַחַר זְמַן מְרֻבֶּה. וְהוּא שֶׁיִּרְאוּהוּ מִיָּד כְּשֶׁהֶעֱלוּהוּ מִן הַמַּיִם, וְגַם שֶׁלֹּא יִהְיֶה בּוֹ מַכָּה, אֲבָל אִם שָׁהָה אַחַר שֶׁהֻשְׁלַךְ מִן הַמַּיִם, אֵין מְעִידִין עָלָיו, אֲפִלּוּ תּוֹךְ ג' (ב''י בְּשֵׁם הָרַמְבַּ''ן וְהָרַשְׁבָּ''א). וְכֵן אִם הָיָה בּוֹ מַכָּה, אֵין מְעִידִין עָלָיו, לְפִי שֶׁהַמַּיִם מְקַלְקְלִים הַמַּכָּה וְנוֹפֵחַ וּמִשְׁתַּנֶּה. הגה: סָפֵק אִם נִשְׁתַּהָה אוֹ לֹא, אָזְלִינָן לְחֻמְרָא וַאֲפִלּוּ אִם נִשֵּׂאת תֵּצֵא (רִיבָ''שׁ סִי' ש''פ). וְכָל זֶה לְהָעִיד עָלָיו בִּטְבִיעוּת עַיִן, אֲבָל עַל יְדֵי סִימָנִים מֻבְהָקִים, אֲפִלּוּ אִשְׁתַּהֵי מַתִּירִין אִשְׁתּוֹ (טוּר וּב''י

#1 - The 3 days is referring to "בַּיַּבָּשָׁה"
   In this case however, it's similar to "מִן הַמַּיִם" because it's been under the freezing mark of 32 degrees most days, so facial features are as intact as if submerged under water as S"A mentions...

#2 - The end explains that if features are intact and recognizable, then she is matir..
-2.

1)pure conjuncture. Its possible that frozen = submerged but says who?
2) simanim muvhakim refer to someone missing a finger etc. Not just tvias ayin. You can check the rest of siman 17 to get a better picture of the basic requirements. Post here when you have a solid heter! ;)


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Re: MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag
« Reply #102 on: March 23, 2014, 10:35:11 PM »
And BTW, accepting DNA evidence is a double edged sword. Do we create mamzerim and through DNA??

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Re: MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag
« Reply #103 on: March 23, 2014, 10:36:22 PM »
-2.

1)pure conjuncture. Its possible that frozen = submerged but says who?
2) simanim muvhakim refer to someone missing a finger etc. Not just tvias ayin. You can check the rest of siman 17 to get a better picture of the basic requirements. Post here when you have a solid heter! ;)
How about fingerprints? Those are one-of-a-kind more than DNA.
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Re: MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag
« Reply #104 on: March 23, 2014, 10:44:42 PM »
Does anyone know his full name, to learn l'eylui nishmaso?

Peretz Yehuda ben Mirel

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Re: MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag
« Reply #105 on: March 23, 2014, 10:46:27 PM »
Peretz Yehuda ben Mirel
fathers for mishnayos

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Re: MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag
« Reply #106 on: March 23, 2014, 10:50:56 PM »
Peretz Yehuda ben Mirel
Don't we need his father's name now?
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Re: MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag
« Reply #107 on: March 23, 2014, 10:52:35 PM »
And BTW, accepting DNA evidence is a double edged sword. Do we create mamzerim and through DNA??
Siman Muvhak is enough for Agunah. I don't think it's enough for Mamzerus.

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Re: MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag
« Reply #108 on: March 23, 2014, 10:56:56 PM »
Siman Muvhak is enough for Agunah. I don't think it's enough for Mamzerus.

I would guess DNA is considered anan sahedi and stronger than Roiv Beilus Achar Habaal... Is anyone actually matir mamzerim when there's contrary DNA evidence?

Agunah is more difficult since you have to disprove the chezkas chaim.
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Re: MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag
« Reply #109 on: March 23, 2014, 10:58:15 PM »
http://koltorah.org/ravj/Agunot%202.htm


Poskim have most recently been asked to address the Halachic status of DNA testing.  Poskim do not accept or require a DNA test to determine an individual’s status  as a Mamzer (see Rav Yosef Shalom Eliashiv, Kovetz Teshuvot 135; Rav Shmuel Wosner and Rav Nissim Karelitz, Techumin 21:123; and Rav Shlomo Dichovsky’s responsum published in Teshuvot Bikkurei Asher, the responsa of contemporary Jerusalem rabbinical court judge Rav Masood Elchadad, number six).  However, Rav Shmuel Wosner and Rav Nissim Karelitz (Techumin ad. loc.) rule that DNA is admissible as partial evidence together with other corroboratory evidence to determine the identity of a missing husband.  They believe that DNA evidence constitutes a Siman Beinoni.  In fact, Rav Yonah Reiss, the director of the Beth Din of America, reports that Rav Eliashiv also ruled in the context of the WTC Agunot that one may partially rely upon DNA evidence for identification purposes.  Rav Wosner and Rav Karelitz, much prefer a DNA test using a sample from the missing person’s personal effects (such as hair from his hairbrush or saliva froma toothbrush) than a DNA test that uses the DNA of immediate family to make an identification.



The Shulchan Aruch (E.H. 17:24) rules that even highly unique items that are found on a body, cannot serve to identify the body.  The Shulchan Aruch explains that we are concerned that the missing husband lent these items to someone else.  The Shulchan Aruch makes no exceptions to this matter and apparently is strict even with items that one normally does not lend.  The Chelkat Mechokeik (17:42) notes that other Poskim disagree and accept the discovery of highly unique and personal items such as one’s wallet or ring that one does not normally lend to others, to identify the body.  In fact, the Beit Shmuel (17:69) rules leniently regarding such items that people do not normally lend to others.  The Pitchei Teshuva (E.H. 17:95) presents a very lengthy summary of this issue, which he introduces by writing, “there exists a great dispute among the Poskim regarding this matter.”  In fact, the Otzar HaPoskim (5:173-204) summarizes rabbinic rulings regarding ninety-five personal items found on or very near bodies whether they constitute things that people would not normally lend.
Rav Moshe Feinstein (Teshuvot Igrot Moshe E.H. 4:57) and Rav Ovadia Yosef (Teshuvot Yabia Omer 6: E.H. 3:2) rule leniently and partially rely upon the discovery of such items to identify a missing husband.  Thus, Rav Gedalia Schwartz reports that the Beth Din of America partially relied upon the discovery of the pants of a missing husband that contained his wallet that included his driver’s license and credit cards.  One might add that although one might lend clothing to others, one does not normally share his business attire with others.  Today, most businesspeople are very meticulous about their appearance and dress and would normally only wear items that are professionally tailored to fit them perfectly.  Thus, it would be highly unlikely for someone to lend his pants to someone to go to his business office on a workday.  Rav Zalman Nechemia presents a similar approach as he writes that in today’s affluent society, there is not a great concern for lending of pants.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 11:02:32 PM by Ergel »
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Re: MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag
« Reply #110 on: March 23, 2014, 11:17:34 PM »
There was at least one book and plenty of kuntresim published re the WTC agunos.

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Re: MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag
« Reply #111 on: March 23, 2014, 11:24:02 PM »
fathers for mishnayos

Don't we need his father's name now?

Right, couldn't find that. Isn't Mishnayos only for the niftar's full name?

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Re: MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag
« Reply #112 on: March 23, 2014, 11:40:41 PM »
Poskim do not accept or require a DNA test to determine an individual’s status  as a Mamzer (see Rav Yosef Shalom Eliashiv, Kovetz Teshuvot 135;
Interestingly, it seems others understood R Elyashiv's teshuva to mean the opposite.

http://www.halachicworld.com/show.asp?PID=4
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Re: MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag
« Reply #113 on: March 24, 2014, 09:53:39 AM »
I'm so impressed with the amount of Torah knowledge from you guys I'm seriously impressed.

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Re: MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag
« Reply #114 on: March 24, 2014, 10:11:34 AM »
I'm so impressed with the amount of Torah knowledge from you guys I'm seriously impressed.
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Re: MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag
« Reply #115 on: March 24, 2014, 10:14:01 AM »
Torah is the best'a schoira!
That's what keeps DDF & Network above and beyond all the other travel/deal sites... Plus, only we have Dan.
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Re: MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag
« Reply #116 on: March 24, 2014, 10:21:57 AM »
Don't we need his father's name now?
Peretz Yehuda Ben Menachem Mendel

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Re: MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag
« Reply #117 on: March 24, 2014, 10:37:56 AM »
Here is an update on the missing man from monsey. This is confirmed. (Not by me) On Friday he called a friend and said "I'm standing in a cemetery I want you to come to my levya but im not telling you where" he then hung up. The call was traced and he hit 3 cellular towers which means he was traveling. That was last time he was heard from.
I would question the validity of that statement.
I spoke to the guy who received the last call, Peretz AH told him that he has found a way out of his problems etc.
As for the 3 cell towers, I believe someone may confused the concept of Triangulation (which involves using the nearest 3 antennae to the phone and calculating the distance to each point)
His LPS (last place seen) was at his house in Pomono while his LKP (last known position) was in Stony Point which would tell investigators that he was traveling in that direction.


Did anyone participate in the search?
Yes, I participated in the search (took a day off of work too, searched 4 grid areas in 4 different cities (covered 121 miles that day alone).
I kept telling command that we should search the closed off roads in Harrimen State Park - but I kept getting excuses.

BDE, May his family find solace in the knowledge & closure. May g-d heal their hearts.
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Re: MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag
« Reply #118 on: March 24, 2014, 12:00:50 PM »
Interestingly, it seems others understood R Elyashiv's teshuva to mean the opposite.

http://www.halachicworld.com/show.asp?PID=4
Well it's clear there that he held you shouldn't do the test. Less clear is what would happen if the test was done and it implies mamzerus. Do we ignore it, or is it enough to establish mamzerus?

What I don't understand is the Elyah Rabah's question. Why wouldn't the mamzerim's blood be absorbed into the father's bone as well?

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Re: MISSING IN MONSEY: 50-Year-Old Peretz Sontag
« Reply #119 on: March 24, 2014, 12:47:35 PM »
Why wouldn't the mamzerim's blood be absorbed into the father's bone as well?
What?
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