Author Topic: Ani Maamin Foundation  (Read 12189 times)

Offline dudi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 1618
  • Total likes: 4
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Star Alliance Gold, Skyteam Elite Plus
Re: Ani Maamin Foundation
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2014, 10:05:57 AM »
I wasn't saying that's whi I follow Judaism, I was just putting a name to the logic the dudi's friends came up with...
its very nice logic but if this is what it comes down to then it sucks that at least the Israeli teenagers these days have no frikin clue what r they living for.
And BTW in Israeli yeshivos you r not allowed to ask any emunah q.s at all my friend once asked his rosh yeshiva a q. In emunah and the guy told him that the reason he opened the yeshiva is for guys to learn not for guys to ask q.s

Offline MarkS

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2009
  • Posts: 3712
  • Total likes: 13
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Ani Maamin Foundation
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2014, 10:08:09 AM »
The bottom line is, that even the Mesora does not mean "Blind Faith". The AMMF was originally accepted to add a little understanding to the fundamental Emuna transmitted through Mesora. This was deemed acceptable by the maskimim. The AMMF have since evolved to embrace the mahalach of Chakira entirely, to the exclusion and dismissal of the accepted method of transmitting Emuna. This is a terrible danger, because already in the time of the reshonim relying on intellectual arguments was dismissed as risky, K'V for our weak generation.
 
Possibly, or maybe the opposite. Maybe mesorah isn't working alone for our weak generation and we need some chakira to get our proper dose.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7184
  • Total likes: 272
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Ani Maamin Foundation
« Reply #47 on: April 08, 2014, 10:09:33 AM »
Possibly, or maybe the opposite. Maybe mesorah isn't working alone for our weak generation and we need some chakira to get our proper dose.
C"V!

If there are weaknesses in the parents transmission, do we throw out the baby with the bath water?

Offline MarkS

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2009
  • Posts: 3712
  • Total likes: 13
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Ani Maamin Foundation
« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2014, 10:11:06 AM »
C"V! If there are weaknesses in the parents transmission, do we throw out the baby with the bath water?
Or don't throw it out and just let it fall down the drain

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7184
  • Total likes: 272
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Ani Maamin Foundation
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2014, 10:12:11 AM »
I would add, that Emuna is not something that is acquired once and done. If one studies the various musser seforim, you can appreciate that emuna is acquired and strengthened through a lifetime of long hard work.
 

Offline MarkS

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2009
  • Posts: 3712
  • Total likes: 13
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Ani Maamin Foundation
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2014, 10:13:42 AM »
I would add, that Emuna is not something that is acquired once and done. If one studies the various musser seforim, you can appreciate that emuna is acquired and strengthened through a lifetime of long hard work.
 
I agree, but the status quo is that emunah is not taught, discussed or thought about (and Q's are shunned).
My understanding is that the AMF is just trying to change that and put it on peoples radar to work on.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7184
  • Total likes: 272
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Ani Maamin Foundation
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2014, 10:14:10 AM »
Or don't throw it out and just let it fall down the drain
There is no way to improve emuna without introducing Chakira??

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7184
  • Total likes: 272
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Ani Maamin Foundation
« Reply #52 on: April 08, 2014, 10:15:05 AM »
I agree, but the status quo is that emunah is not taught, discussed or thought about (and Q's are shunned).
My understanding is that the AMF is just trying to change that and put it on peoples radar to work on.
That was their original mission. Chakira is not the answer.

Offline Freddie

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 3102
  • Total likes: 247
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Pittsburgh
Re: Ani Maamin Foundation
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2014, 10:29:00 AM »
This problem was foreseen and dealt with already. The solution is called chasidus or Toras habaal shem tov.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7184
  • Total likes: 272
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Ani Maamin Foundation
« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2014, 10:36:08 AM »
This problem was foreseen and dealt with already. The solution is called chasidus or Toras habaal shem tov.
Here we go!  :)



Offline Achas Veachas

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 4223
  • Total likes: 16
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Ani Maamin Foundation
« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2014, 10:40:08 AM »
Was waiting for that (and had a suspicion Freddie would be the one to deliver :P ).
For the record I do agree chassidus gives the best approach to the Chakirah/Emuna problem though I refuse to get involved in that argument...


ETA: for an excellent analysis of the issue as well as the various approaches to solving it with the pros and cons of each approach, see Menachem Brod's excellent book נשמה עם עצמה chapters 15-16
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 10:57:49 AM by Achas Veachas »
Curiosity made the cat smarter.

Offline Freddie

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 3102
  • Total likes: 247
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Pittsburgh
Re: Ani Maamin Foundation
« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2014, 11:03:53 AM »
Was waiting for that (and had a suspicion Freddie would be the one to deliver :P ).


I am full of joy to hear that. It means I must be doing something right on this forum.

Offline doodle

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Oct 2013
  • Posts: 222
  • Total likes: 3
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Dead Sea
Re: Ani Maamin Foundation
« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2014, 11:16:06 AM »
I think that guys here are missing the point. There always have been two very fundamental approaches to Emuna: "Chakira" and "Mesora." The definition of, and appropriateness of, both have been debated extensively by the Geonim, Reshonim and Achronim.

Over the generations, the Mahalach of Mesora has been accepted; mainly due to the risks of Chakira. This is not the place to get involved in the Chakira vs Mesora debate....
 
The bottom line is, that even the Mesora does not mean "Blind Faith". The AMMF was originally accepted to add a little understanding to the fundamental Emuna transmitted through Mesora. This was deemed acceptable by the maskimim. The AMMF have since evolved to embrace the mahalach of Chakira entirely, to the exclusion and dismissal of the accepted method of transmitting Emuna. This is a terrible danger, because already in the time of the reshonim relying on intellectual arguments was dismissed as risky, K'V for our weak generation.
  EXCELLENT AND EXPRESSED WELL  +1
Salt Is Good

Offline HP58

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 1391
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Ani Maamin Foundation
« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2014, 11:35:29 AM »
I think that guys here are missing the point. There always have been two very fundamental approaches to Emuna: "Chakira" and "Mesora." The definition of, and appropriateness of, both have been debated extensively by the Geonim, Reshonim and Achronim.

Over the generations, the Mahalach of Mesora has been accepted; mainly due to the risks of Chakira. This is not the place to get involved in the Chakira vs Mesora debate....
 
The bottom line is, that even the Mesora does not mean "Blind Faith". The AMMF was originally accepted to add a little understanding to the fundamental Emuna transmitted through Mesora. This was deemed acceptable by the maskimim. The AMMF have since evolved to embrace the mahalach of Chakira entirely, to the exclusion and dismissal of the accepted method of transmitting Emuna. This is a terrible danger, because already in the time of the reshonim relying on intellectual arguments was dismissed as risky, K'V for our weak generation.
IMHO there is a difference between the "chakira" discussed and rejected by (most of) the Acharonim, and the explanations given in these Q&A sessions. The Acharonim were discussing Moreh Nevuchim/Shaar Hayichud style proofs of G-d's existence scientifically and the like. In these Q&A sessions mostly they're just reinforcing the strength of the "mesorah", such as the Ramban of "Ain Adam manchil nachalas sheker l'bnoi" etc.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7184
  • Total likes: 272
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Ani Maamin Foundation
« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2014, 11:42:41 AM »
IMHO there is a difference between the "chakira" discussed and rejected by (most of) the Acharonim, and the explanations given in these Q&A sessions. The Acharonim were discussing Moreh Nevuchim/Shaar Hayichud style proofs of G-d's existence scientifically and the like. In these Q&A sessions mostly they're just reinforcing the strength of the "mesorah", such as the Ramban of "Ain Adam manchil nachalas sheker l'bnoi" etc.
For the main part you are correct. (Personally I never was comfortable with the organization and the format but thats a separate issue.)
 As with all things, the problem arises when they begin crossing the line. Messing with seder night was the line.