Author Topic: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban  (Read 12327 times)

Offline henche

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #135 on: May 23, 2014, 04:39:41 PM »
These are stories that Chabad kids grow up hearing.
http://www.nytimes.com/1983/06/21/nyregion/hasidic-rabbi-s-beard-is-cut-in-an-abduction-in-brooklyn.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1983/06/22/nyregion/attack-on-rabbi-brings-anguish-to-borough-park.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1984/05/27/nyregion/man-cleared-of-cutting-hasidic-rabbi-s-beard.html
That is what they did. Not surprised that you are shocked by this.

They also threw rocks at Mitzvah Tanks... But I don't want to tell all the stories in one thread :-X





None of those are about killing somebody.  As horrible as they are.

Offline bochur123

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #136 on: May 23, 2014, 06:04:12 PM »
One article mentioned Lacerations on he's neck...

Offline henche

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #137 on: May 23, 2014, 06:12:45 PM »
One article mentioned Lacerations on he's neck...

The accusation was that they slit his neck and left him for dead.

Look,  I don't want to sound like I'm minimizing what happened.   Just some lawyerly tips: when the facts are on your side, it pays to stick to them.

Offline Satmar Lady

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #138 on: May 25, 2014, 12:38:37 AM »
The accusation was that they slit his neck and left him for dead.

Look,  I don't want to sound like I'm minimizing what happened.   Just some lawyerly tips: when the facts are on your side, it pays to stick to them.
None of my fellow Satmar chassidim who remembered this parshah had any recollection of attacks other than what was mentioned in these articles. (And I, too, am in no way trying to minimize these attacks.) One of them, the daughter of a then prominent staff member in Satmar yeshiva, added that she remembers being harassed by Lubavitchers threatening over the phone to burn down their home.
I make it a point to try to look at things from an unbiased perspective, so I thought that the guilty party might have hidden the truth from other Satmar members. Now I'm starting to suspect that the more horrific version is actually a fabrication, although I am still open to accept the truth if it could be proven.
They also filled me in on some very important missing details about Vechter's actions, which explained - not justified! - the parents' measures to prevent further deceit and aggravation. I don't like to "bashmutz" Jews on a public forum, but let's just say that it seems it wasn't as pashut as some here are trying to portray.

Offline Satmar Lady

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #139 on: May 25, 2014, 01:02:40 AM »
And the root to it all was one side trying to impose its worldview on the rest of Torah Jewry. Let's not lose the forest for the trees.
And this was the point I wanted to make in the first place.
Chabad might have tried certain things, but in its history it never used coercion by intimidation.
Yes, Satmar has changed a lot in recent years. Mostly IMHO  due to circumstances of internal strife and loss of power over events in Torah Jewry in America due to loss in public opinion rather than any change in shita.
I've already replied that I wasn't interested in getting involved in an "it's your fault that we did what we did" type of argument, although I technically could retort in such a manner. But I was a bit disturbed by your last statement, which implies that the original Satmar shitah was to fight against anyone who doesn't accept our beliefs. I was planning to look into this, and then on Shabbos I happened to read a piece in a Yiddish weekly which I found very interesting. It's from an interview with Rabbi Yecheskel Roth shlita, Karlsburger Rav.
ש: דער רב איז א קנאי וואס איז גרייט צו ליידן אויפן דעת תורה, אבער דער רב... גייט באזוכן אלע רבנים און רבי'ס און לעבט מיט יעדן בשלום... איז נישט קנאות א סתירה מיט שלום?
ת: אין דעם נושא האב איך איין מורה דרך, דער רבי זי"ע. ער איז דאך געווען דער עמוד האש פון קנאות און ער איז געגאנגען באזוכן די רבי'ס פון גור, וויזניץ, הגאון רבי אהרן קאטלער וועמען ער האט אזוי מספיד געווען. אפילו עסקנים פון אגודה האט דער רבי שיין אויפגענומען, און די עסקנים פון חינוך עצמאי, דער רבי האט זיי אפי' געגעבן געלט צו שטיצן. דער רבי האט אויסגעלערנט אז מען דארף זיין מיט יעדן איד א ידיד און נאר לוחם זיין פאר'ן אמת קעגן דעם שקר, אבער נישט מענטשן איינער קעגן דעם צווייטן.
The same article mentions that when the Satmar Rebbe appointed Rav Roth as Satmar Dayan in Boro Park, he referred to him as "mein Reb Cheskele". This Lashon chibah, which was out of character for the Rebbe, should give Rav Roth the credence to state the Rebbe's shittah as it truly was, more than any hothead would try to convince you.


Offline Moshe123

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #140 on: May 25, 2014, 01:15:35 AM »
2 comments.

The facts of history don't change. The actions were there regardless of what he said. Most of it after he passed away.

And remind me if Rav Roth wasn't kicked out of his Rabbanus and came to Belz to apologize.

Offline Satmar Lady

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #141 on: May 25, 2014, 01:26:14 AM »
2 comments.

The facts of history don't change. The actions were there regardless of what he said. Most of it after he passed away.

And remind me if Rav Roth wasn't kicked out of his Rabbanus and come to Belz to apologize.
OK, so if it was after the Satmar Rebbe passed away, then why would you refer to it as the shittah? What some - even many - Satmars did isn't necessarily the Satmar shittah, which refers to the teachings of the Divrei Yoel zt"l.
Rav Roth was kicked out for a different reason entirely, which has nothing to do with his shalom'dige policy and everything to do with a certain issur he paskened. This does nothing to prove that Satmar disapproves of Shalom. I sort of expected you to bring this up here, after getting to know your style of a debate.
I know that Rav Roth went to Belz, as did Rav Aharon of Satmar, but I haven't heard about the apologizing. I know some Roth grandchildren, who still send their kids to Satmar mosdos. It would be interesting to hear what they have to say.

Offline ilherman

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #142 on: May 25, 2014, 01:30:27 AM »
All I know today is that the Chabad that I spent 8 years in yeshivas and centers around the world couldn't care less about making someone frum "become chabad" and doesn't feel that any other jew, frum or not, is worth any less than if they were chabad.
Nor is there a feeling that anyone frum is lacking something.

Quote
The rabbi, Pinchas Korf, 49, a member of the Lubavitcher Hasidim, was assaulted a year ago today when he went to a building in Brooklyn in the Williamsburg section, a Satmar stronghold, to give religious instruction to the teen-age son of a Satmar family, according to the prosecution.
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

Offline Freddie

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #143 on: May 25, 2014, 01:31:31 AM »
Nobody accuses the Satmar Rov zatza"l of being the one who led or even fomented or even would have approved of the attacks.

These individuals acted on their own.

What was upsetting was that leadership didn't condemn it and even admitted that they were afraid and had no control over the thugs.

Offline Satmar Lady

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #144 on: May 25, 2014, 01:40:55 AM »
Nobody accuses the Satmar Rov zatza"l of being the one who led or even fomented or even would have approved of the attacks.

These individuals acted on their own.

What was upsetting was that leadership didn't condemn it and even admitted that they were afraid and had no control over the thugs.
My comments about the Satmar Rebbe were only in response to Moshe's term "shittah".
I share your feelings regarding the refusal to condemn the attacks. Although I must add that after hearing from an older Satmar chasid exactly why the parents felt so betrayed, hurt and helpless to stop it in any other way, I sort of got an understanding of why the leadership refused to come out against them.

Offline ganizzy

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #145 on: May 25, 2014, 01:44:29 AM »
R' Korf was asked by these bochrim to teach them tanya, he didnt go out and trick them into learning. He was actually set up to get "caught" in the instance mentioned in the paper

as for slitting the throat - from what i understand - and i heard the story from the wife and daughters,
is that his beard was violently cut off leaving lacerations to his neck - but life threatening ones. similiar to the throat being cut. and he was left on the street.

his family went out searching for him, otherwise.....

his former students who respected and admired him went to find the truth of what happened, and ended up learning tanya - apparently a capitol crime

in any case, why is this discussion needed? the relationship between chabad and satmar are different now. its not the best, but something like this would not happen again.

and punk farkert, there are many cases of Satmar helping Chabad and vice versa.

i mentioned "there is  history" to understand the context of why we were getting defensive about the parade ban instead of just attributing it to regular Satmar behavior against "outside influences" , but doesn't mean we need to dredge up all the history and rehash it.

Offline Dan

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #146 on: May 25, 2014, 01:46:59 AM »
    The rabbi, Pinchas Korf, 49, a member of the Lubavitcher Hasidim, was assaulted a year ago today when he went to a building in Brooklyn in the Williamsburg section, a Satmar stronghold, to give religious instruction to the teen-age son of a Satmar family, according to the prosecution.
AKA learning some Tanya or other chassidus.

Nobody is trying to make anyone "become lubavitch" but there's no sin in learning some da"ch.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Freddie

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #147 on: May 25, 2014, 02:25:02 AM »
My comments about the Satmar Rebbe were only in response to Moshe's term "shittah".
I share your feelings regarding the refusal to condemn the attacks. Although I must add that after hearing from an older Satmar chasid exactly why the parents felt so betrayed, hurt and helpless to stop it in any other way, I sort of got an understanding of why the leadership refused to come out against them.

Excuse me? You sort of got an understanding of what? Why leadership couldn't condemn brutal violence? No, I'm sorry. That doesn't fly. And what is this "helpless to stop it in any other way" garbage?

I'm really disappointed. I always convinced myself that the average Satmar man or woman was just as horrified by these thugs.  :(

Offline Satmar Lady

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #148 on: May 25, 2014, 02:43:29 AM »
Excuse me? You sort of got an understanding of what? Why leadership couldn't condemn brutal violence? No, I'm sorry. That doesn't fly. And what is this "helpless to stop it in any other way" garbage?

I'm really disappointed. I always convinced myself that the average Satmar man or woman was just as horrified by these thugs.  :(
First of all, you can be sure I'm just as horrified and so was everyone I spoke to. The only thing I'm not as upset as you seem to be, is why the leadership refused to condemn the actions - and again, I didn't say I'm not upset, just not as upset - and this, only after hearing the other side of the story.
I was careful to write "why the parents felt ... helpless to stop it in any other way." Not saying that there wasn't any other way. But it does happen that people get frustrated after getting nowhere from just talking, and they mistakenly think the only other way is to get really aggressive.

Online zh cohen

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #149 on: May 25, 2014, 02:56:14 AM »
First of all, you can be sure I'm just as horrified and so was everyone I spoke to. The only thing I'm not as upset as you seem to be, is why the leadership refused to condemn the actions - and again, I didn't say I'm not upset, just not as upset - and this, only after hearing the other side of the story.
I was careful to write "why the parents felt ... helpless to stop it in any other way." Not saying that there wasn't any other way. But it does happen that people get frustrated after getting nowhere from just talking, and they mistakenly think the only other way is to get really aggressive.

How many of these people that you spoke to were part of the hundreds of people who surrounded the lubavitchers on talucha, and screamed "shect him with a brochah" referring to a person that they (mistakenly) identified as a journalist that wrote things they didn't like in the Algemeiner?