Author Topic: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban  (Read 22182 times)

Offline Moshe123

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Sep 2012
  • Posts: 5935
  • Total likes: 911
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Spring Valley
  • Programs: Lost
Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #140 on: May 25, 2014, 01:15:35 AM »
2 comments.

The facts of history don't change. The actions were there regardless of what he said. Most of it after he passed away.

And remind me if Rav Roth wasn't kicked out of his Rabbanus and came to Belz to apologize.

Offline Satmar Lady

  • Non-Elite Member
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 0
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #141 on: May 25, 2014, 01:26:14 AM »
2 comments.

The facts of history don't change. The actions were there regardless of what he said. Most of it after he passed away.

And remind me if Rav Roth wasn't kicked out of his Rabbanus and come to Belz to apologize.
OK, so if it was after the Satmar Rebbe passed away, then why would you refer to it as the shittah? What some - even many - Satmars did isn't necessarily the Satmar shittah, which refers to the teachings of the Divrei Yoel zt"l.
Rav Roth was kicked out for a different reason entirely, which has nothing to do with his shalom'dige policy and everything to do with a certain issur he paskened. This does nothing to prove that Satmar disapproves of Shalom. I sort of expected you to bring this up here, after getting to know your style of a debate.
I know that Rav Roth went to Belz, as did Rav Aharon of Satmar, but I haven't heard about the apologizing. I know some Roth grandchildren, who still send their kids to Satmar mosdos. It would be interesting to hear what they have to say.

Offline ilherman

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2013
  • Posts: 8935
  • Total likes: 227
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 35
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #142 on: May 25, 2014, 01:30:27 AM »
All I know today is that the Chabad that I spent 8 years in yeshivas and centers around the world couldn't care less about making someone frum "become chabad" and doesn't feel that any other jew, frum or not, is worth any less than if they were chabad.
Nor is there a feeling that anyone frum is lacking something.

Quote
The rabbi, Pinchas Korf, 49, a member of the Lubavitcher Hasidim, was assaulted a year ago today when he went to a building in Brooklyn in the Williamsburg section, a Satmar stronghold, to give religious instruction to the teen-age son of a Satmar family, according to the prosecution.
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

Offline Freddie

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 3088
  • Total likes: 308
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Pittsburgh
Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #143 on: May 25, 2014, 01:31:31 AM »
Nobody accuses the Satmar Rov zatza"l of being the one who led or even fomented or even would have approved of the attacks.

These individuals acted on their own.

What was upsetting was that leadership didn't condemn it and even admitted that they were afraid and had no control over the thugs.

Offline Satmar Lady

  • Non-Elite Member
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 0
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #144 on: May 25, 2014, 01:40:55 AM »
Nobody accuses the Satmar Rov zatza"l of being the one who led or even fomented or even would have approved of the attacks.

These individuals acted on their own.

What was upsetting was that leadership didn't condemn it and even admitted that they were afraid and had no control over the thugs.
My comments about the Satmar Rebbe were only in response to Moshe's term "shittah".
I share your feelings regarding the refusal to condemn the attacks. Although I must add that after hearing from an older Satmar chasid exactly why the parents felt so betrayed, hurt and helpless to stop it in any other way, I sort of got an understanding of why the leadership refused to come out against them.

Offline ganizzy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2010
  • Posts: 1067
  • Total likes: 6
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #145 on: May 25, 2014, 01:44:29 AM »
R' Korf was asked by these bochrim to teach them tanya, he didnt go out and trick them into learning. He was actually set up to get "caught" in the instance mentioned in the paper

as for slitting the throat - from what i understand - and i heard the story from the wife and daughters,
is that his beard was violently cut off leaving lacerations to his neck - but life threatening ones. similiar to the throat being cut. and he was left on the street.

his family went out searching for him, otherwise.....

his former students who respected and admired him went to find the truth of what happened, and ended up learning tanya - apparently a capitol crime

in any case, why is this discussion needed? the relationship between chabad and satmar are different now. its not the best, but something like this would not happen again.

and punk farkert, there are many cases of Satmar helping Chabad and vice versa.

i mentioned "there is  history" to understand the context of why we were getting defensive about the parade ban instead of just attributing it to regular Satmar behavior against "outside influences" , but doesn't mean we need to dredge up all the history and rehash it.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67598
  • Total likes: 16909
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #146 on: May 25, 2014, 01:46:59 AM »
    The rabbi, Pinchas Korf, 49, a member of the Lubavitcher Hasidim, was assaulted a year ago today when he went to a building in Brooklyn in the Williamsburg section, a Satmar stronghold, to give religious instruction to the teen-age son of a Satmar family, according to the prosecution.
AKA learning some Tanya or other chassidus.

Nobody is trying to make anyone "become lubavitch" but there's no sin in learning some da"ch.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Freddie

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 3088
  • Total likes: 308
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Pittsburgh
Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #147 on: May 25, 2014, 02:25:02 AM »
My comments about the Satmar Rebbe were only in response to Moshe's term "shittah".
I share your feelings regarding the refusal to condemn the attacks. Although I must add that after hearing from an older Satmar chasid exactly why the parents felt so betrayed, hurt and helpless to stop it in any other way, I sort of got an understanding of why the leadership refused to come out against them.

Excuse me? You sort of got an understanding of what? Why leadership couldn't condemn brutal violence? No, I'm sorry. That doesn't fly. And what is this "helpless to stop it in any other way" garbage?

I'm really disappointed. I always convinced myself that the average Satmar man or woman was just as horrified by these thugs.  :(

Offline Satmar Lady

  • Non-Elite Member
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 0
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #148 on: May 25, 2014, 02:43:29 AM »
Excuse me? You sort of got an understanding of what? Why leadership couldn't condemn brutal violence? No, I'm sorry. That doesn't fly. And what is this "helpless to stop it in any other way" garbage?

I'm really disappointed. I always convinced myself that the average Satmar man or woman was just as horrified by these thugs.  :(
First of all, you can be sure I'm just as horrified and so was everyone I spoke to. The only thing I'm not as upset as you seem to be, is why the leadership refused to condemn the actions - and again, I didn't say I'm not upset, just not as upset - and this, only after hearing the other side of the story.
I was careful to write "why the parents felt ... helpless to stop it in any other way." Not saying that there wasn't any other way. But it does happen that people get frustrated after getting nowhere from just talking, and they mistakenly think the only other way is to get really aggressive.

Online zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1501
  • Total likes: 1675
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: 412
Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #149 on: May 25, 2014, 02:56:14 AM »
First of all, you can be sure I'm just as horrified and so was everyone I spoke to. The only thing I'm not as upset as you seem to be, is why the leadership refused to condemn the actions - and again, I didn't say I'm not upset, just not as upset - and this, only after hearing the other side of the story.
I was careful to write "why the parents felt ... helpless to stop it in any other way." Not saying that there wasn't any other way. But it does happen that people get frustrated after getting nowhere from just talking, and they mistakenly think the only other way is to get really aggressive.

How many of these people that you spoke to were part of the hundreds of people who surrounded the lubavitchers on talucha, and screamed "shect him with a brochah" referring to a person that they (mistakenly) identified as a journalist that wrote things they didn't like in the Algemeiner?

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7355
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #150 on: May 25, 2014, 05:31:27 AM »
An interesting discussion with different perspectives here: http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=163

Offline Moshe123

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Sep 2012
  • Posts: 5935
  • Total likes: 911
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Spring Valley
  • Programs: Lost
Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #151 on: May 25, 2014, 06:50:59 AM »
An interesting discussion with different perspectives here: http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=163


The first page was a lot to read...

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 4183
  • Total likes: 447
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #152 on: May 25, 2014, 08:45:05 AM »
AKA learning some Tanya or other chassidus.

Nobody is trying to make anyone "become lubavitch" but there's no sin in learning some da"ch.

Yes.  And add to that the lunacy of hiring a lubavicher chossid to teach your kids chassidus and then being surprised that he isn't teaching the satmar derech. 

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67598
  • Total likes: 16909
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #153 on: May 25, 2014, 09:30:21 AM »
Yes.  And add to that the lunacy of hiring a lubavicher chossid to teach your kids chassidus and then being surprised that he isn't teaching the satmar derech. 
I don't think learning tanya will "make you chabad" any more than learning mussar will make you a litvak.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ilherman

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2013
  • Posts: 8935
  • Total likes: 227
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 35
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #154 on: May 25, 2014, 09:32:21 AM »
I don't think learning tanya will "make you chabad" any more than learning mussar will make you a litvak.
Put your thinking in a side, but that's actually what happened. They became chabad, and they still are.
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

Online TimT

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 22077
  • Total likes: 7130
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #155 on: May 25, 2014, 09:33:07 AM »
I don't think learning tanya will "make you chabad" any more than learning mussar will make you a litvak.
I never understood why people are so scared of learning tanya.

Offline Achas Veachas

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 4399
  • Total likes: 114
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
    • Torah && Tech
Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #156 on: May 25, 2014, 09:38:53 AM »
Put your thinking in a side, but that's actually what happened. They became chabad, and they still are.
FWIU that is only because they were pretty much thrown out of Satmar...

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67598
  • Total likes: 16909
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #157 on: May 25, 2014, 09:40:55 AM »
Put your thinking in a side, but that's actually what happened. They became chabad, and they still are.
I'm not arguing that such a thing didn't happen, but that's not the point of learning tanya.  The point is hafatzas chassidus habesh"t, not to steal away children from their parents ideology.

Either way this stuff happened well before my time and I don't have anything worthwhile to add.  But next time  R' Aaron Dovid Gancz comes to visit his son here I'll have to ask him for his perspective of the story.  Wickedly smart man, so thanks for not shechting him for "converting" ;)
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ilherman

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2013
  • Posts: 8935
  • Total likes: 227
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 35
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #158 on: May 25, 2014, 09:47:11 AM »
I'm not arguing that such a thing didn't happen, but that's not the point of learning tanya.  The point is hafatzas chassidus habesh"t, not to steal away children from their parents ideology.

Either way this stuff happened well before my time and I don't have anything worthwhile to add.  But next time  R' Aaron Dovid Gancz comes to visit his son here I'll have to ask him for his perspective of the story.  Wickedly smart man, so thanks for not shechting him for "converting" ;)
Correct. I had a shier Tanye as a Bochur every night, I knew that my Magid Shier's intention wan not to make us Chabad.

Was just pointing out what Satmar's concern is.
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7355
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #159 on: May 25, 2014, 09:50:50 AM »
In the interest of intellectual honesty I will comment. (sorry).
There seems to be a very fundamental misunderstanding about basic tenants of the disagreement. I am not taking any sides, just explaining the way I understand things.

The principle opposition to chassidus and chabbad is not about some superficial name "Chabbadsker" or style of dress.
The issue is and always was, the teachings of chabbad and their form of chassidus teachings. What is chassidus for chabbad is not necessarily chassidus for satmar. Misnagdim aside, even most chassidusim do not teach chassidus in its most extreme form like chabbad. They either never held of it, or they believe that in this generation the extreme form of chassidus as taught and emphisised by chabbadskers can potentially lead some astray. (Evedently there is actually a very small minority of chabbadskers who did become elokists/meshichists etc. So the opposition is not unfounded...) 

An average non chabbad chossid today, does not know of, or subscribe to most of the things that missnagdim originally were opposed to. For them indeed "nistachach toras habesht".
Imposing teachings of chassidus that are not inline with the mesora of satmar or others is and was the issue.