Author Topic: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban  (Read 12415 times)

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #150 on: May 25, 2014, 05:31:27 AM »
An interesting discussion with different perspectives here: http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=163

Offline Moshe123

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #151 on: May 25, 2014, 06:50:59 AM »
An interesting discussion with different perspectives here: http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=163


The first page was a lot to read...

Offline henche

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #152 on: May 25, 2014, 08:45:05 AM »
AKA learning some Tanya or other chassidus.

Nobody is trying to make anyone "become lubavitch" but there's no sin in learning some da"ch.

Yes.  And add to that the lunacy of hiring a lubavicher chossid to teach your kids chassidus and then being surprised that he isn't teaching the satmar derech. 

Offline Dan

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #153 on: May 25, 2014, 09:30:21 AM »
Yes.  And add to that the lunacy of hiring a lubavicher chossid to teach your kids chassidus and then being surprised that he isn't teaching the satmar derech. 
I don't think learning tanya will "make you chabad" any more than learning mussar will make you a litvak.
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Offline ilherman

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #154 on: May 25, 2014, 09:32:21 AM »
I don't think learning tanya will "make you chabad" any more than learning mussar will make you a litvak.
Put your thinking in a side, but that's actually what happened. They became chabad, and they still are.
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

Offline TimT

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #155 on: May 25, 2014, 09:33:07 AM »
I don't think learning tanya will "make you chabad" any more than learning mussar will make you a litvak.
I never understood why people are so scared of learning tanya.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #156 on: May 25, 2014, 09:38:53 AM »
Put your thinking in a side, but that's actually what happened. They became chabad, and they still are.
FWIU that is only because they were pretty much thrown out of Satmar...
Curiosity made the cat smarter.

Offline Dan

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #157 on: May 25, 2014, 09:40:55 AM »
Put your thinking in a side, but that's actually what happened. They became chabad, and they still are.
I'm not arguing that such a thing didn't happen, but that's not the point of learning tanya.  The point is hafatzas chassidus habesh"t, not to steal away children from their parents ideology.

Either way this stuff happened well before my time and I don't have anything worthwhile to add.  But next time  R' Aaron Dovid Gancz comes to visit his son here I'll have to ask him for his perspective of the story.  Wickedly smart man, so thanks for not shechting him for "converting" ;)
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Offline ilherman

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #158 on: May 25, 2014, 09:47:11 AM »
I'm not arguing that such a thing didn't happen, but that's not the point of learning tanya.  The point is hafatzas chassidus habesh"t, not to steal away children from their parents ideology.

Either way this stuff happened well before my time and I don't have anything worthwhile to add.  But next time  R' Aaron Dovid Gancz comes to visit his son here I'll have to ask him for his perspective of the story.  Wickedly smart man, so thanks for not shechting him for "converting" ;)
Correct. I had a shier Tanye as a Bochur every night, I knew that my Magid Shier's intention wan not to make us Chabad.

Was just pointing out what Satmar's concern is.
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #159 on: May 25, 2014, 09:50:50 AM »
In the interest of intellectual honesty I will comment. (sorry).
There seems to be a very fundamental misunderstanding about basic tenants of the disagreement. I am not taking any sides, just explaining the way I understand things.

The principle opposition to chassidus and chabbad is not about some superficial name "Chabbadsker" or style of dress.
The issue is and always was, the teachings of chabbad and their form of chassidus teachings. What is chassidus for chabbad is not necessarily chassidus for satmar. Misnagdim aside, even most chassidusim do not teach chassidus in its most extreme form like chabbad. They either never held of it, or they believe that in this generation the extreme form of chassidus as taught and emphisised by chabbadskers can potentially lead some astray. (Evedently there is actually a very small minority of chabbadskers who did become elokists/meshichists etc. So the opposition is not unfounded...) 

An average non chabbad chossid today, does not know of, or subscribe to most of the things that missnagdim originally were opposed to. For them indeed "nistachach toras habesht".
Imposing teachings of chassidus that are not inline with the mesora of satmar or others is and was the issue.

Offline Dan

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #160 on: May 25, 2014, 10:00:27 AM »
Correct. I had a shier Tanye as a Bochur every night, I knew that my Magid Shier's intention wan not to make us Chabad.
Well there ya go...

Frankly it's like saying chabad is trying to convert non-jews to judaism because of the mivtza sheva mitzvos bnei noach.  I'm sure it might happen to a couple folks, but to say that that's the intention is just untrue.

In the interest of intellectual honesty I will comment. (sorry).
There seems to be a very fundamental misunderstanding about basic tenants of the disagreement. I am not taking any sides, just explaining the way I understand things.

The principle opposition to chassidus and chabbad is not about some superficial name "Chabbadsker" or style of dress.
The issue is and always was, the teachings of chabbad and their form of chassidus teachings. What is chassidus for chabbad is not necessarily chassidus for satmar. Misnagdim aside, even most chassidusim do not teach chassidus in its most extreme form like chabbad. They either never held of it, or they believe that in this generation the extreme form of chassidus as taught and emphisised by chabbadskers can potentially lead some astray. (Evedently there is actually a very small minority of chabbadskers who did become elokists/meshichists etc. So the opposition is not unfounded...) 

An average non chabbad chossid today, does not know of, or subscribe to most of the things that missnagdim originally were opposed to. For them indeed "nistachach toras habesht".
Imposing teachings of chassidus that are not inline with the mesora of satmar or others is and was the issue.
Extreme? Spoken like someone who hasn't opened a Tanya is his life. 

Elokists? You make me laugh.  Please show me a non-tzfati like that.  Doesn't exist.  I brought my own bottled water when I went to Tzfas :P
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 10:04:38 AM by Dan »
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #161 on: May 25, 2014, 10:05:54 AM »
"Extreme" was not meant in a negative connotation.
Re elokist, agree! I wasnt implying anything on normal chabbadsker at all.  Just pointing out that the opposition to chassidus eons ago had to do with this issue.

Its obviously helpless to have a normal convo related to opposition to chabbad...

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #162 on: May 25, 2014, 10:12:51 AM »
(Evedently there is actually a very small minority of chabbadskers who did become elokists/meshichists etc. So the opposition is not unfounded...) 

The Elokists/Meshichists are never the ones known for being big Maskilim in Chassiduss...
Curiosity made the cat smarter.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #163 on: May 25, 2014, 10:18:07 AM »
The Elokists/Meshichists are never the ones known for being big Maskilim in Chassiduss...
Fine.

The point was that the opposition by satmar was to the study of chabads version chassidus. Not to making them chabad.

Offline henche

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Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
« Reply #164 on: May 25, 2014, 10:31:57 AM »
I don't think learning tanya will "make you chabad" any more than learning mussar will make you a litvak.

You underestimate me.  You give me 20 minutes with an ohr yisroel and I will make you so litvish you'll stand in manhattan and tell people to NOT put on teffilin.

ETA: I'll have you walking 15 miles to shuls on simchas torah and then sitting in the corner learning during hakafos.

« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 10:44:35 AM by henche »