Author Topic: MLM Scam Discussions (cont from DD Main site)  (Read 11952 times)

Offline EP123

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MLM Scam Discussions (cont from DD Main site)
« on: June 27, 2014, 01:12:47 PM »
I wanted to continue discussing Dan's post on MLM and CC scams. It is a waste to discuss in the comments being that it will soon not be on the front page. So please lets continue discussions here.

My two cents:

The reason why many of the Frum people fall for / love MLM is because of it's get rich quick feeling.

Many frum people are looking for extra income, (as discussed in other threads regarding the cost of living for frum families) MLM's offer the dream of not doing much work but bringing in alot of income, which is the dream. Most people I know doing MLM's are female, and they do not have alot of other options for side income, they are not going to run a small side amazon business, and they are not going to be handymen. So unless they can find a well paying tutoring or writing job there are not much other options for decent income.

So for anyone that is thinking MLM's, I only know one person that is actually making money with a MLM and they are busting their female version of beitzim, she may as well just get a regular sales job and make more money. There is no real money in MLM period. A person needs to make money in something sustainable per the rules of capitalism via Warren Buffet and others.

For those who need side income here are some suggestions, they will not make you rich but can bring in 1-4k a month.

Graphic Design - there are many orgs offering courses
Photography - $600 in equipment to start. youtube, fstoppers, and facebook groups will be your guides.
Shadchan - There is a major lack in dedicated shadchanim.
Grant writing - there are easy courses out there. for starters you can call many non profits and work on their DHS grants - you make 1k each
Mileage brokering - very small margins but if you know some large or medium spenders who do not sell points yet, you can broker their points to other larger brokers who hang out here or just reach out to anyone advertising, they will buy from you in bulk at decent rates.

There are many other like this, find what you like doing and trying making money out of it. Remember nothing is easy. Somethings are just easier.


Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: MLM Scam Discussions (cont from DD Main site)
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2014, 01:34:07 PM »
Great post! - until you mentioned mileage brokerage. That another semi shady, unsustainable industry. Shouldn't be  recommended as an alternative to something real.

Offline EP123

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Re: MLM Scam Discussions (cont from DD Main site)
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2014, 01:36:48 PM »
Great post! - until you mentioned millage brokerage. That another semi shady, unsustainable industry.
You just offended a large demographic of DDF'rs

I do not think it is shady. But it is a grey market field, and your accounts will one day be shut under Operation Choke Point..

If you aim to earn 1-4k a month you are under the radar, you are just a small player

Do not quit your job for it, it is meant as a side / supplemental income

Online Something Fishy

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Re: MLM Scam Discussions (cont from DD Main site)
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2014, 01:38:52 PM »
For those who need side income here are some suggestions, they will not make you rich but can bring in 1-4k a month.

Photography - $600 in equipment to start. youtube, fstoppers, and facebook groups will be your guides.

In lala land ::)
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Offline EP123

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Re: MLM Scam Discussions (cont from DD Main site)
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2014, 01:40:16 PM »
In lala land ::)
To start = canon t3i or similar, 2 cheap diffusers, "borrowed" copy of Photoshop and/or Lightroom.

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Re: MLM Scam Discussions (cont from DD Main site)
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2014, 01:42:14 PM »
To start = canon t3i or similar, 2 cheap diffusers, "borrowed" copy of Photoshop and/or Lightroom.

Oh please :o.

Lucky for you, I'm too tired to argue now.
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Offline DH Data Recovery

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Re: MLM Scam Discussions (cont from DD Main site)
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2014, 01:56:06 PM »
In lala land ::)
+1

That's not even enough for cheap family pictures...

Offline EP123

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Re: MLM Scam Discussions (cont from DD Main site)
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2014, 02:02:12 PM »
+1

That's not even enough for cheap family pictures...
I disagree, for a beginner who is taking photos for friends and family a t3i will do just fine. Mark 5d III, strobe lights, seamless paper etc.. can come slowly as income grows.


Offline zale

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Re: MLM Scam Discussions (cont from DD Main site)
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2014, 03:03:36 PM »


Graphic Design - there are many orgs offering courses
Photography - $600 in equipment to start. youtube, fstoppers, and facebook groups will be your guides.
Shadchan - There is a major lack in dedicated shadchanim.
Grant writing - there are easy courses out there. for starters you can call many non profits and work on their DHS grants - you make 1k each
Mileage brokering - very small margins but if you know some large or medium spenders who do not sell points yet, you can broker their points to other larger brokers who hang out here or just reach out to anyone advertising, they will buy from you in bulk at decent rates.


Pretty much wrong on almost all accounts.

  • Graphic Design - To make even a little money with graphic design, you need to be really, really good. Courses will only help you a little. If you are THAT good, you can already make it a full time job. (it's also practically impossible to make this part-time. It can take 10 hours to design a single flier, and everybody needs it done "yesterday")
  • Photography - Like our expert, SF said, in your dreams. For the record, "hobby photography" is a far cry from business photography. Business photography requires a LOT of equipment and hired help. It also requires actually doing a good job and not having people upset with the shots you took and then refusing to pay. Every other person I know has a side photography business on Facebook. Non of them actually make any significant money, even for a side job.
  • Shadchan - Almost everyone tries their hand at this and some point or another, and quits after their first try. Shadchonus is murder, and you need to be able to sustain a lot of abuse. It also requires tremendous Mazel. How many people do you know that are actually making even a side job out of this??
  • Grant Writing - How many clients are you going to get for this? one a year?
  • Mileage brokering - I don't disagree, but have fun while it lasts. Airlines are already shutting accounts down right and left, Amex stopped online transfers, Chase is cracking down and will probably get tougher soon, SPG are rare and will probably crack down eventually.

If you are looking for side-income, you'll do better getting a real job that pays by the hour. The above-mentioned work is better as full-time.

Offline MC

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Re: MLM Scam Discussions (cont from DD Main site)
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2014, 03:14:20 PM »
Grant writing can be a great idea if you have experience. Most non-profits have no clue what to do and would be happy to pay. Plus some grants now allow you to take a percentage of the grant to cover "Management and Admin" so you can even end up offering it to the organization at no cost to them.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: MLM Scam Discussions (cont from DD Main site)
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2014, 04:43:08 PM »
+1.

 And to all above: No One ever became a successful entrepreneur with a can't do attitude.  :)

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: MLM Scam Discussions (cont from DD Main site)
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2014, 01:16:18 PM »
No One ever became successful with a can't do attitude.  :)
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline yitzf

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Re: MLM Scam Discussions (cont from DD Main site)
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2014, 12:51:58 AM »
Article this week in BusinessWeek about similar things happening by the Amish.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-06-26/rich-amish-lured-into-florida-land-investment-scheme

Quote
 That business lost investors an estimated $12 million. Crill believes the Amish are particularly susceptible to so-called affinity schemes, which rely on word of mouth within a tight community. With Bernie Madoff, it was other wealthy Jews active on the charity circuit. Frauds have reached Mormons, Koreans, Lebanese, and almost every other group.In pursuing the Moffitt deal, Crill had underestimated one of the most important aspects of how the Amish do business: the principle that a man’s word is as good as a contract. “Honesty and trust are everything for the Amish,” says Kraybill, and many deals are sealed by handshake. And since the rescission document stated that withdrawn funds could “adversely affect” the project, rather than turn on Moffitt, many Amish questioned Crill’s motives. One major Amish businessman says many worried that Crill’s investigation could scuttle the development. In addition, the Amish have a deep aversion to government intervention. For investors, it was none of the government’s business—or, by extension, Crill’s—whether Moffitt had registered with the SEC. As a rule, they do not “go to the law.”

Offline Moishel

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Re: MLM Scam Discussions (cont from DD Main site)
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2014, 10:35:07 AM »
Reasons Haredim (and Amish) fall for these scams:

1) We believe anecdotal evidence. (My sister in law's brother has a chavusa that makes TONS of money from it). (see anti vaxers, also prevalent in our community)
2) We don't have a solid background in mathematics or business to calculate and see that such a business model is unsustainable, and that it's mathematically impossible for most people in this business to make money.
3) We're a very trusting bunch. If there's a heimish looking guy telling me that in 3 months I'm starting to rake in the millions, he looks frum, why would he lie to me?
4) Lack of other options. (Stay at home mom/ Kollel guy that is too embarrassed of his parents/in laws/friends to go look for a normal full time job. s'past nisht.
5) Some of us think that we're too smart to consult with a professional before stepping into it. (Those who do usually don't end up doing it).
6) Herd mentality. (Everybody's doing it!)


Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: MLM Scam Discussions (cont from DD Main site)
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2014, 11:00:22 AM »
Reasons Haredim (and Amish) fall for these scams:

1) We believe anecdotal evidence. (My sister in law's brother has a chavusa that makes TONS of money from it). (see anti vaxers, also prevalent in our community)
2) We don't have a solid background in mathematics or business to calculate and see that such a business model is unsustainable, and that it's mathematically impossible for most people in this business to make money.
3) We're a very trusting bunch. If there's a heimish looking guy telling me that in 3 months I'm starting to rake in the millions, he looks frum, why would he lie to me?
4) Lack of other options. (Stay at home mom/ Kollel guy that is too embarrassed of his parents/in laws/friends to go look for a normal full time job. s'past nisht.
5) Some of us think that we're too smart to consult with a professional before stepping into it. (Those who do usually don't end up doing it).
6) Herd mentality. (Everybody's doing it!)
Quote
7)In addition, the Amish Frum have a deep aversion to government intervention. For investors, it was none of the government’s business—or, by extension, Crill’s—whether Moffitt had registered with the SEC. As a rule, they do not “go to the law.”

Offline EP123

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Re: MLM Scam Discussions (cont from DD Main site)
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2014, 11:52:29 AM »
Pretty much wrong on almost all accounts.

  • Graphic Design - To make even a little money with graphic design, you need to be really, really good. Courses will only help you a little. If you are THAT good, you can already make it a full time job. (it's also practically impossible to make this part-time. It can take 10 hours to design a single flier, and everybody needs it done "yesterday")
  • Photography - Like our expert, SF said, in your dreams. For the record, "hobby photography" is a far cry from business photography. Business photography requires a LOT of equipment and hired help. It also requires actually doing a good job and not having people upset with the shots you took and then refusing to pay. Every other person I know has a side photography business on Facebook. Non of them actually make any significant money, even for a side job.
  • Shadchan - Almost everyone tries their hand at this and some point or another, and quits after their first try. Shadchonus is murder, and you need to be able to sustain a lot of abuse. It also requires tremendous Mazel. How many people do you know that are actually making even a side job out of this??
  • Grant Writing - How many clients are you going to get for this? one a year?
  • Mileage brokering - I don't disagree, but have fun while it lasts. Airlines are already shutting accounts down right and left, Amex stopped online transfers, Chase is cracking down and will probably get tougher soon, SPG are rare and will probably crack down eventually.

If you are looking for side-income, you'll do better getting a real job that pays by the hour. The above-mentioned work is better as full-time.

Remember I mentioned these as part time supplemental income.

Graphic Design - With a little understanding of design you can design cards and other stuff for you friends and family, for example $25 for a email invite design, usually it is very simple. Flyer for your schools and shuls, logos (outsource it to those logo sites and no one will be the wiser). It is not too hard to earn 1k a month doing these small stuff

Photography - It is not about the equipment, it is about the photographer, if you have a little talent you can do just fine taking photos for those you know, eventually your portfolio will grow. Taking pictures at a bris / upsherin etc. for a low fee. Pro photographers will shred the pictures because white balance is off or it is too green.. But for the regular layman any high res properly framed picture with decent lighting will do just fine. Run it through lightroom and you will be considered a pro by them.

Shadchan - if it is something up your alley and your personality there is no reason it should not work. Look at it as a sales job. Some shadchanim charge a small fee just to handle your case, you do not need to do that in the beginning, you just need to be very devoted and pushy.

Grant Writing - I happen to know of many organizations looking for help with grants. Once you do one application and you learn the style, they will all be easier. I say this from experience.

Mileage brokering- Again, it has to suit your style, but the mileage business is not going anywhere, as the risk goes up so does the prices.
 



I forgot to add another easy option:

Real estate agent - The course is not that hard, nor expensive. You can easily join a large real estate firm and take advantage of their services (but you will need to give them a cut of your commissions). You will have access to your local MLS, you can either then advertise to the Jewish community, or you can just post those listings on Craigslist. You will get results. Baduk umenuash. The real money is in sales, especially if you are the listing agent (i.e. you are the one listing the house) but rentals can also bring in a nice side income.






Offline damaxer91

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Re: MLM Scam Discussions (cont from DD Main site)
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2015, 06:57:05 PM »
Why is there no discussion about Arbonne on DDF? Seems to be all over the place in Frum communities


Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: MLM Scam Discussions (cont from DD Main site)
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2015, 06:59:47 PM »
Why is there no discussion about Arbonne on DDF? Seems to be all over the place in Frum communities
What is it?
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline elit

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Re: MLM Scam Discussions (cont from DD Main site)
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2015, 07:18:45 PM »
Why is there no discussion about Arbonne on DDF? Seems to be all over the place in Frum communities
Bc it's the same as all the others? Why single it out