Author Topic: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?  (Read 16400 times)

Offline Expert Flyer

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2014, 01:14:42 PM »
I also think it's ok & there has to be some way to feed the poor, but there is a difference between that & what's going on today!
ever heard of this one?
"a fine is a tax 4 doing something wrong, tax is a fine 4 doing something right, & obamacare is a fine on humanity...."!

The way to food the poor is tzedaka and deregulation so that more (productive) jobs can be created

Offline zale

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2014, 01:15:53 PM »
If the congregation is the rightful owner of this place, they have a right to charge members.
Taxation in the current way is no different from theft.

It's not love it or leave it, but submit or die.

Call taxation whatever you want to call it. Tax has been around since the beginning of time, and tax has been ENFORCED since the beginning of time. Republicans and Democrats both believe in collecting taxes, they only differ in HOW to use it.

The videos you posted are propaganda for ideas that would never work in the real world.

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2014, 01:18:40 PM »
Call taxation whatever you want to call it. Tax has been around since the beginning of time, and tax has been ENFORCED since the beginning of time. Republicans and Democrats both believe in collecting taxes, they only differ in HOW to use it.

The videos you posted are propaganda for ideas that would never work in the real world.

Well people said the same thing about slavery 200 years ago. Simply because the majority (or both sides of government) want it does not make it moral.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=2589

Offline zale

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2014, 01:19:20 PM »
The way to food the poor is tzedaka and deregulation so that more (productive) jobs can be created

Nice thought, but would never work in the real world. If the IRS were abolished tomorrow and tax became voluntary, this country wouldn't survive the year.

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2014, 01:20:48 PM »
Call taxation whatever you want to call it. Tax has been around since the beginning of time, and tax has been ENFORCED since the beginning of time. Republicans and Democrats both believe in collecting taxes, they only differ in HOW to use it.

The videos you posted are propaganda for ideas that would never work in the real world.

Historically, taxation was a means of the people to support the government. Not to redistribute the wealth amongst other constituents.

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2014, 01:22:58 PM »
Nice thought, but would never work in the real world. If the IRS were abolished tomorrow and tax became voluntary, this country wouldn't survive the year.

LOL Till 1913, the USA had no Federal Reserve and no income taxes. Most taxes we have today didn't exist back then. And despite this, the USA had the largest middle class, schools, roads, fire department, an army who managed to win several wars. Please tell me again why we need to be robbed and extorted.

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2014, 01:27:19 PM »
Historically, taxation was a means of the people to support the government. Not to redistribute the wealth amongst other constituents.

Historically, tax was added to the kings personal treasure to make him wealthier and fatter. Redistributing wealth is a step up from that.

Offline clear thinker

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2014, 01:27:21 PM »
LOL Till 1913, the USA had no Federal Reserve and no income taxes. Most taxes we have today didn't exist back then. And despite this, the USA had the largest middle class, schools, roads, fire department, an army who managed to win several wars. Please tell me again why we need to be robbed and extorted.
+1!!

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2014, 01:35:33 PM »
LOL Till 1913, the USA had no Federal Reserve and no income taxes. Most taxes we have today didn't exist back then. And despite this, the USA had the largest middle class, schools, roads, fire department, an army who managed to win several wars. Please tell me again why we need to be robbed and extorted.

Completely nonsensical argument.

1. What were our military expenses in 1912?
2. What were our healthcare costs in 1912?
3. What was our population in 1912?


Offline menachem_m

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2014, 01:47:40 PM »
LOL Till 1913, the USA had no Federal Reserve and no income taxes. Most taxes we have today didn't exist back then. And despite this, the USA had the largest middle class, schools, roads, fire department, an army who managed to win several wars. Please tell me again why we need to be robbed and extorted.
At the same time, I don't think you'd be so willing to roll the dice on that if your family was C"V totally dependent on government to put bread in your mouth.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Offline clear thinker

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2014, 02:05:44 PM »
At the same time, I don't think you'd be so willing to roll the dice on that if your family was C"V totally dependent on government to put bread in your mouth.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
agredd there gas to be a middle way

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2014, 02:10:22 PM »
The only way government can help Ruven is by first robbing shimon.
Government creates dependence.

And no, I am not opposed to tzedoko

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2014, 02:54:28 PM »
Besides, are you aware of the famous sugya of תקפו כהן?

Yes, the Torah does believe in forced taxation to redistribute your money to the poor and needy.

There is certainly a difference in the way you feel about it, but the idea is the same, i.e. you are forcibly paying a portion of your earnings to be redistributed among those who earn less or nothing.

This is not like a congregation. If a congregation forced you to pay a membership fee, you can simply choose to find another congregation or to stay home. A Kupah on the other hand requires you to pay into regardless of what you choose to do.

Look, it makes sense that you don't feel good about giving away a portion of your hard-earned money to be redistributed to people or programs that you don't know (I hate it), but this is the way the world turns. It has always been this way and will always continue to be this way. My point here is that the Torah definitely believes that it is OK an proper to redistribute income.
תקפו כהו has nothing to do with this. He had no right to go ahead and grab it since המע"ה once he did some hold that we cannot forcibly take it from him.

The Torah does NOT IN ANY WAY believe in redistribution of wealth and "income equality". The torah does believe in a MINIMAL safety net. The only ones who qualify are those who would basically die of starvation without the minimal food given them. If they unjustifiably pamper themselves that they can't eat the coarse food given there is not even a mitzva to give them fancier food. Anything more is not included in the amounts that they are required to give by the community, but is a mitzva. Even current "conservatives" would not do away with such programs.
Historically, tax was added to the kings personal treasure to make him wealthier and fatter. Redistributing wealth is a step up from that.
Not al pi torah. A Jewish king has restrictions what he may tax for.
1. What were our military expenses in 1912?
Maybe that should be reigned in somewhat as well.
2. What were our healthcare costs in 1912?
What do healthcare costs have to do with taxes and government?
3. What was our population in 1912?
What does population have to do with anything. If anything higher population should make taxes lower due to efficiency. It is only when population means more people RECEIVING money that it would make a difference.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2014, 03:11:49 PM »
To help the poor, we have charity which rely on voluntary contributions.

Safety nets have perverse incentives


Offline zale

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2014, 03:32:54 PM »
תקפו כהו has nothing to do with this. He had no right to go ahead and grab it since המע"ה once he did some hold that we cannot forcibly take it from him.

Exactly my point. The Torah is allotting a portion of YOUR property to a Kohen. Even if L'chatchila a specific Kohen couldn't grab it, now that he has it some hold you can't take it back, because of his innate RIGHTS to it as a Kohen. Anyhow, this is mild stuff compared to COMPELLING community members to give towards a Kupah.

Quote
The Torah does NOT IN ANY WAY believe in redistribution of wealth and "income equality". The torah does believe in a MINIMAL safety net. The only ones who qualify are those who would basically die of starvation without the minimal food given them. If they unjustifiably pamper themselves that they can't eat the coarse food given there is not even a mitzva to give them fancier food. Anything more is not included in the amounts that they are required to give by the community, but is a mitzva. Even current "conservatives" would not do away with such programs.

Who ever brought up "income equality"? That is an ultra-liberal phrase that I entirely disagree with nor have made mention of. I only mentioned redistribution, something which the Torah clearly does hold of.

Do you think food stamps are meant to be abused? They are meant to buy basics for families who can't afford otherwise. The food stamps allotted to a family are meant to be exactly enough to buy food for a month. Guess what, many Frum families RELY on every penny of this, and I'm talking about families who don't abuse it. The food stamp program is EXACTLY like the Kupah, except that it is not monitored as tightly. And yes, I understand the argument of conservatives to crack down on this and monitor it better. (if that's even possible, considering the amount of EBT recipients today.)

Quote
Not al pi torah. A Jewish king has restrictions what he may tax for.

Who's talking about a Jewish king? I was responding to an argument made that taxes were once used to support the government and not for redistribution. My point was that redistribution is better than lining the pockets of bureaucrats.

Quote
Maybe that should be reigned in somewhat as well.

Stop wasting money invading countries like Iraq? I completely agree.

However, much military spending goes to MAINTAINING the military. Research and development of new weapons, maintenance costs of aircraft carriers, soldier's salaries and veteran's benefits, etc.. When you have threats from the Arab world and Russia like you have today, there is no choice. Cutting back is suicide.

Quote
What do healthcare costs have to do with taxes and government?

Ahem. Something like 20% of your tax dollars go toward healthcare spending. Healthcare costs have skyrocketed because of stupid policies, and most normal working-class people can barely afford it.

Also, there were no expensive medical procedures in 1913. No triple bypass's, no Lasik, heck, no $15,000 birthing bill. You visited the doctor what, once a year?

C'mon, you need me to spell this out for you???

Quote
What does population have to do with anything. If anything higher population should make taxes lower due to efficiency. It is only when population means more people RECEIVING money that it would make a difference.

Yeah, well the fact is that there are a limited amount of good jobs out there. When I say good jobs, I mean enough to survive on. In 1913 Americans were able to live on a measly salary, and America was building and manufacturing like crazy. It's just not like that anymore today.

Point is, don't waste your time comparing 2014 to 1914. It was a different world then. What worked then will most certainly not work now.

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2014, 03:37:11 PM »

Ahem. Something like 20% of your tax dollars go toward healthcare spending. Healthcare costs have skyrocketed because of stupid policies, and most normal working-class people can barely afford it.

The government should never have gotten involved in healthcare. Anything the government touches gets ruined in quality and skyrockets in price.

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2014, 03:38:27 PM »
תקפו כהו has nothing to do with this. He had no right to go ahead and grab it since המע"ה once he did some hold that we cannot forcibly take it from him.

The Torah does NOT IN ANY WAY believe in redistribution of wealth and "income equality". The torah does believe in a MINIMAL safety net. The only ones who qualify are those who would basically die of starvation without the minimal food given them. If they unjustifiably pamper themselves that they can't eat the coarse food given there is not even a mitzva to give them fancier food. Anything more is not included in the amounts that they are required to give by the community, but is a mitzva. Even current "conservatives" would not do away with such programs.Not al pi torah. A Jewish king has restrictions what he may tax for.Maybe that should be reigned in somewhat as well.What do healthcare costs have to do with taxes and government?What does population have to do with anything. If anything higher population should make taxes lower due to efficiency. It is only when population means more people RECEIVING money that it would make a difference.
+1!
couldn't have said it better myself!

Offline zale

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2014, 03:39:52 PM »
The government should never have gotten involved in healthcare. Anything the government touches gets ruined in quality and skyrockets in price.

These are the stats regardless of Obamacare. This is the result of thousands upon thousands of lawsuits and regulations against hospitals and doctors.

Every idiot sues their local hospital for malpractice. Hospitals have no choice but to pay through the roof for insurance, and they pass that bill onto YOU.

Offline clear thinker

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #58 on: July 08, 2014, 03:41:35 PM »
& obamacare only added "insult upon injury" it was much better beforehand!

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #59 on: July 08, 2014, 03:55:20 PM »
Who ever brought up "income equality"? That is an ultra-liberal phrase that I entirely disagree with nor have made mention of. I only mentioned redistribution, something which the Torah clearly does hold of.

Do you think food stamps are meant to be abused? They are meant to buy basics for families who can't afford otherwise. The food stamps allotted to a family are meant to be exactly enough to buy food for a month. Guess what, many Frum families RELY on every penny of this, and I'm talking about families who don't abuse it. The food stamp program is EXACTLY like the Kupah, except that it is not monitored as tightly. And yes, I understand the argument of conservatives to crack down on this and monitor it better. (if that's even possible, considering the amount of EBT recipients today.)
Nonsense. The kupah was a bare subsistence and the except is a big exception. There was no buying steaks and custom pastries with the kupah.
Stop wasting money invading countries like Iraq? I completely agree.

However, much military spending goes to MAINTAINING the military. Research and development of new weapons, maintenance costs of aircraft carriers, soldier's salaries and veteran's benefits, etc.. When you have threats from the Arab world and Russia like you have today, there is no choice. Cutting back is suicide.
I won't argue about Iraq. Was never for it. There is plenty of other waste besides. Even if we keep military spending as it is taxes can be slashed by cutting out cronyism and social programs that are more than a basic safety net.
Ahem. Something like 20% of your tax dollars go toward healthcare spending. Healthcare costs have skyrocketed because of stupid policies, and most normal working-class people can barely afford it.

Also, there were no expensive medical procedures in 1913. No triple bypass's, no Lasik, heck, no $15,000 birthing bill. You visited the doctor what, once a year?

C'mon, you need me to spell this out for you???
The government should never have gotten involved in healthcare. Anything the government touches gets ruined in quality and skyrockets in price.
These are the stats regardless of Obamacare. This is the result of thousands upon thousands of lawsuits and regulations against hospitals and doctors.

Every idiot sues their local hospital for malpractice. Hospitals have no choice but to pay through the roof for insurance, and they pass that bill onto YOU.
According to your reasoning the answer to that issue isn't for the government to get more involved and add more regulaions but to get rid of the ridiculous regulations that caused the problem in the first place. The republican stand of tort reform would help the other issue. You are basically saying that the problem is what the conservatives are saying it is but that the solution is to do more of it :o
Feelings don't care about your facts