Author Topic: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?  (Read 16145 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #80 on: July 08, 2014, 07:45:32 PM »
As Zale mentioned, some level of a mandatory safety net is what is advocated al pi torah. I did not say anything more or less than that. I think that he took it further than I would.

As an aside, there is certainly a public interest in a minimal level of safety net since history has shown that desperation leads to criminality. Some of the most dangerous places are due to crimes of desperation. The question becomes which has the least adverse effects.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Expert Flyer

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #81 on: July 08, 2014, 07:58:32 PM »
As Zale mentioned, some level of a mandatory safety net is what is advocated al pi torah. I did not say anything more or less than that. I think that he took it further than I would.

As an aside, there is certainly a public interest in a minimal level of safety net since history has shown that desperation leads to criminality. Some of the most dangerous places are due to crimes of desperation. The question becomes which has the least adverse effects.

The solution is to  abolish regulations which prohibits people from working, such as minimum wage.
What if I don't trust the government to properly spend and manage that money to help the needy? I don't trust the government!

Offline aygart

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #82 on: July 08, 2014, 08:29:53 PM »
The solution is to  abolish regulations which prohibits people from working, such as minimum wage.
What if I don't trust the government to properly spend and manage that money to help the needy? I don't trust the government!
Stop drinking the kool-aid. Do you really think that there was no poverty before the minimum wage was enacted in 1938?
You don't trust the government? so who would you trust?

“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government, except all those others that have been tried” – Winston Churchill.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Expert Flyer

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #83 on: July 09, 2014, 10:22:23 AM »
Stop drinking the kool-aid. Do you really think that there was no poverty before the minimum wage was enacted in 1938?
You don't trust the government? so who would you trust?

“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government, except all those others that have been tried” – Winston Churchill.

Minimum wage hurts the unskilled working poor.
אל-תבטחו בנדיבים-- בבן-אדם, שאין לו תשועה
ie I don't trust people with power.

Fallacy:

Statist: A recent poll has 55% of the public supporting stricter gun control laws, with 44% opposed.

(Implication: the threat or initiation of violence against peaceful people is justified by numbers.)

Response:

Democracy? I want nothing to do with a system which operates on the premise that my rights don't exist simply because I am outnumbered. —R. Lee Wrights
The threat or initiation of violence (violation of the NonAggressionPrinciple) does not suddenly become moral because you outnumber a group (even if you go through a rat's nest of "representatives" and claim you're a "republic" rather than a "democracy").

It does not become moral just because said majority hires people, dresses them in uniforms, and pays them (with stolen money) to initiate violence; special pleading is a fallacy, and evil actions do not become good because a gang calling itself "the state" demands them.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 10:30:11 AM by Expert Flyer »

Offline zale

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #84 on: July 09, 2014, 11:19:03 AM »
Minimum wage hurts the unskilled working poor.
אל-תבטחו בנדיבים-- בבן-אדם, שאין לו תשועה
ie I don't trust people with power.

Fallacy:

Statist: A recent poll has 55% of the public supporting stricter gun control laws, with 44% opposed.

(Implication: the threat or initiation of violence against peaceful people is justified by numbers.)

Response:

Democracy? I want nothing to do with a system which operates on the premise that my rights don't exist simply because I am outnumbered. —R. Lee Wrights
The threat or initiation of violence (violation of the NonAggressionPrinciple) does not suddenly become moral because you outnumber a group (even if you go through a rat's nest of "representatives" and claim you're a "republic" rather than a "democracy").

It does not become moral just because said majority hires people, dresses them in uniforms, and pays them (with stolen money) to initiate violence; special pleading is a fallacy, and evil actions do not become good because a gang calling itself "the state" demands them.

You must have recently returned from the land of Lala. I don't know how things run in that land, but I can tell you that your ideas are that of a fanatic.

Sure, in a perfect world your ideas would work just fine. Every man for himself, right? No government intervention, right?

You sound like one of those guys who show up as a contestant to a random electoral debate spewing fanaticism who serve as a comic relief, like these whackos:
se

You started this thread stating that you hoped there were no liberals here. Oddly, you are far more fanatic than any liberal I know.

Remember one thing, הוי מתפלל בשלומה של מלכות, שאלמלי מוראה איש את רעהו חיים בלעו.

No government is or will ever be perfect. What you have today is as close to democracy as you are going to get. If you think you can do better, find your own island and start your own government. Let's see how well you do.

Offline Expert Flyer

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #85 on: July 09, 2014, 11:49:11 AM »
Every man for himself, right? No government intervention, right?

No government is or will ever be perfect. What you have today is as close to democracy as you are going to get. If you think you can do better, find your own island and start your own government. Let's see how well you do.

I am no liberal.
Fallacy: 1) If the government does not provide a service, than that service won't be provided at all.
             2) You think that I want everyone to fend for themselves.

Democracy is still the tyranny of the majority. Look at the liberals who want to force employers to pay for the birth control pills of their female employees. And that's just one example among many.

Offline aygart

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #86 on: July 09, 2014, 12:37:41 PM »
Minimum wage hurts the unskilled working poor.
אל-תבטחו בנדיבים-- בבן-אדם, שאין לו תשועה
ie I don't trust people with power.

Fallacy:

Statist: A recent poll has 55% of the public supporting stricter gun control laws, with 44% opposed.

(Implication: the threat or initiation of violence against peaceful people is justified by numbers.)

Response:

Democracy? I want nothing to do with a system which operates on the premise that my rights don't exist simply because I am outnumbered. —R. Lee Wrights
The threat or initiation of violence (violation of the NonAggressionPrinciple) does not suddenly become moral because you outnumber a group (even if you go through a rat's nest of "representatives" and claim you're a "republic" rather than a "democracy").

It does not become moral just because said majority hires people, dresses them in uniforms, and pays them (with stolen money) to initiate violence; special pleading is a fallacy, and evil actions do not become good because a gang calling itself "the state" demands them.
You have really veered from the question. Zale has pointed out that al pi torah there should be a mandatory safety net. It seems to me that Zale and I disagree as to the scope of that net, with him being of the opinion that it would go as far as current food stamps while I feel it would be much more limited. In your attempts to refute it you made a nonsensical claim by implication that abolishing the minimum wage would eliminate the need for a safety net. This does not explain how people starved to death before the enactment of a minimum wage. To answer that you start discussing gun control? ??? :o

I am no liberal.
Fallacy: 1) If the government does not provide a service, than that service won't be provided at all.
             2) You think that I want everyone to fend for themselves.

Democracy is still the tyranny of the majority. Look at the liberals who want to force employers to pay for the birth control pills of their female employees. And that's just one example among many.
How do you propose to take care of a safety net?

“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government, except all those others that have been tried” – Winston Churchill.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Expert Flyer

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #87 on: July 09, 2014, 01:04:37 PM »

How do you propose to take care of a safety net?

“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government, except all those others that have been tried” – Winston Churchill.

As I said before, it is called צדקה.
On government, if a monopoly leads to inefficiencies at best for food, consumer goods etc., why would it be any different for money or a legal system.

Offline aygart

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #88 on: July 09, 2014, 04:33:59 PM »
As I said before, it is called צדקה.
On government, if a monopoly leads to inefficiencies at best for food, consumer goods etc., why would it be any different for money or a legal system.
chazal felt the need to make it mandatory as stated before and you have been ignoring.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #89 on: July 11, 2014, 10:31:10 AM »
Why do I sometimes feel like after I need to repeat the same point numerous times due to it being evaded it eventually just becomes a conversation ender?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Expert Flyer

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #90 on: July 13, 2014, 11:18:56 AM »
Why do I sometimes feel like after I need to repeat the same point numerous times due to it being evaded it eventually just becomes a conversation ender?

Either the words of chazal have been misinterpreted, or chazal might have been wrong on this one

Offline aygart

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #91 on: July 13, 2014, 11:44:08 AM »
Either the words of chazal have been misinterpreted, or chazal might have been wrong on this one
:o if that's the position you are ready to take just because it does not fit with your baseless opinion then I guess the conversation is over.>:(
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 11:49:15 AM by aygart »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #92 on: July 13, 2014, 11:49:11 AM »
Either the words of chazal have been misinterpreted, or chazal might have been wrong on this one
::) 

Imagine a gerbil telling einstein that he thinks he's "wrong on this one". Now multiply that by infinity and realize how pathetic you sound.

Offline moko

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #93 on: July 13, 2014, 11:51:55 AM »
Either the words of chazal have been misinterpreted, or chazal might have been wrong on this one
I recall Avi Weiss saying something to that effect

Offline Expert Flyer

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #94 on: August 29, 2014, 05:56:59 AM »
Chazal also spoke about bloodletting. We don't do that anymore today.
If we no longer appeal to outdated medical knowledge, why should we appeal to outdated economics?

http://michaelmakovi.blogspot.be/2011/11/jerusalem-post-what-does-torah-say.html

Offline aygart

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #95 on: August 29, 2014, 09:12:58 AM »
Chazal also spoke about bloodletting. We don't do that anymore today.
If we no longer appeal to outdated medical knowledge, why should we appeal to outdated economics?

http://michaelmakovi.blogspot.be/2011/11/jerusalem-post-what-does-torah-say.html
Show me the research which says that a minimal safety net is not beneficial.
There is a big difference between not following something which may have changed over the years to deciding that they were wrong because it doesn't fit with the ideologies someone got from Rush Limbaugh.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Expert Flyer

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #96 on: September 01, 2014, 07:17:26 AM »
Show me the research which says that a minimal safety net is not beneficial.
There is a big difference between not following something which may have changed over the years to deciding that they were wrong because it doesn't fit with the ideologies someone got from Rush Limbaugh.

Now you sound like Sam Seder. If you want a safety net, I am not stopping you from using your money to fund it or ask other people to voluntarily fund it.
I am against you (or the government) extorting other people at gunpoint.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #97 on: September 01, 2014, 08:14:55 AM »
Now you sound like Sam Seder. If you want a safety net, I am not stopping you from using your money to fund it or ask other people to voluntarily fund it.
I am against you (or the government) extorting other people at gunpoint.

I keep seeing a statistic, that the government spends over $60,000 in welfare annually per poor family.
Not that they receive that much, but that's how much the government spends running all their different ridiculous programs. Why are there still poor people? If they just cut a check for 60 friggin thousand dollars that would put the entire population far above the poverty line.

If you can't agree that the government turned into highway robbers and causes economic inefficiency you are clearly deluded.

Every recent election the big focus is always on "minorities" (aka potential black and Hispanic voters) and how much "freebies" each candidate can promise them.

As is famously said "When the people find that they can vote themselves money that will herald the end of the republic."
Visibly Jewish

Offline Sport

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #98 on: September 01, 2014, 09:19:10 AM »

I keep seeing a statistic, that the government spends over $60,000 in welfare annually per poor family.
Not that they receive that much, but that's how much the government spends running all their different ridiculous programs. Why are there still poor people? If they just cut a check for 60 friggin thousand dollars that would put the entire population far above the poverty line.

If you can't agree that the government turned into highway robbers and causes economic inefficiency you are clearly deluded.

Every recent election the big focus is always on "minorities" (aka potential black and Hispanic voters) and how much "freebies" each candidate can promise them.

As is famously said "When the people find that they can vote themselves money that will herald the end of the republic."
Do you have a source for that number?

Offline aygart

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Re: Politically and economically where do you guys stand?
« Reply #99 on: September 01, 2014, 10:03:50 AM »
Now you sound like Sam Seder. If you want a safety net, I am not stopping you from using your money to fund it or ask other people to voluntarily fund it.
I am against you (or the government) extorting other people at gunpoint.
Unfamiliar with Sam Seder, so I don't get the comparison. I do understand that he is some sort of liberal media personality, but that is about it.
I fully understand that you are against a government safety net. This is an opinion of yours. Your opinion is counter to Chazal simply because that is your opinion. There is no comparison to not following their medical advice.
http://michaelmakovi.blogspot.be/2011/11/jerusalem-post-what-does-torah-say.html
I by no means consider this twenty year old to be an authoritative opinion. Regarding the points he makes the identity of the author is irrelevant, but many of them are to answer the twisted interpretations that he quotes from Barry Leff. (His link to Leff's article is not working for me right now so I was unable to go by more than his article in itself.) He makes the terrible and shallow mistake of accepting the premise that Chazal say what Leff attributes to them. Even in his refutations of these misconstrued statements he shows a shallow understanding of both Chazal and economics. He begins by broadly applying statements regarding medicine and science to all aspects of the torah. He is uses that to effectively say that once someone disagrees with something CHazal say he may disregard it. You will notice that all examples he brings are from agada which, as he quotes from the Rambam,are often not meant literally. He compares this to clear cut halachic statements of chazal such as ona'ah which is a pasuk in the torah.
Quote
Furthermore, it is absurd to say, "A seller cannot charge more than one-sixth (15 percent) more than the market price.", because whatever the seller charges ipso fact *is* the market price! You are essentially telling the seller that he cannot charge more than 1/6 of what he himself charges. It's absurdly recursive
This statement is utterly ridiculous. Imagine a case where a politician is selling a stock which is selling on the the stock market for $50 a share. Someone who is looking for a political favor now offers the politician $10,000 a share for the stock. The politician is now arrested and claims that he sold the stock at market price simply because that is what he sold it at. This is a nonsensical claim. Similarly, a scammer who sells this stock privately at this price to someone who does not understand the stock market just because he was able to convince them that it was worth it cannot claim that he sold it at the market price.
I keep seeing a statistic, that the government spends over $60,000 in welfare annually per poor family.
Not that they receive that much, but that's how much the government spends running all their different ridiculous programs. Why are there still poor people? If they just cut a check for 60 friggin thousand dollars that would put the entire population far above the poverty line.

If you can't agree that the government turned into highway robbers and causes economic inefficiency you are clearly deluded.

Every recent election the big focus is always on "minorities" (aka potential black and Hispanic voters) and how much "freebies" each candidate can promise them.

As is famously said "When the people find that they can vote themselves money that will herald the end of the republic."

I fully agree that the current safety net system is utterly ridiculous and have not made any statement otherwise. On the other hand, that does not mean that not safety net should exist at all.
As Zale mentioned, some level of a mandatory safety net is what is advocated al pi torah. I did not say anything more or less than that. I think that he took it further than I would.
You have really veered from the question. Zale has pointed out that al pi torah there should be a mandatory safety net. It seems to me that Zale and I disagree as to the scope of that net, with him being of the opinion that it would go as far as current food stamps while I feel it would be much more limited.
“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government, except all those others that have been tried” – Winston Churchill.
Many, if not all, of the issues with this system would be solved by following Chazal's system. Some of the differences are that chazal's system is purely local and run exclusively by the town by volunteers with local oversight and little to no bureaucracy. Even then, only those with extreme circumstances such as being close to starvation would qualify for assistance. It is somewhat, but not quite Paul Ryanesque.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 10:14:24 AM by aygart »
Feelings don't care about your facts