Satmar Rebbe's comments on the three murdered teens

[Menachem613]

Slightly off topic, isn't the Admor from Satmar's wife a Hebrew speaking Israeli?

[yitzf]

Intentional homicide rates are about three times higher in the US (4.8 per 100,000) than in Israel (1.8 per 100,000). Just because the protection is much more obvious and close to home in Israel, and violence there is felt much more throughout the Jewish community does not mean it is any more dangerous.
I lived in Alon Shvut for a year; I hitchhiked from the very spot that they were kidnapped from about a hundred times. Is it completely safe? No. But it is the culture, and I think that needs to change ASAP.
Regardless, blaming the boys' parents is uneducated, insensitive, and wrong on many levels. Now is a time for us to be united, not attacking each other.

Can't compare the overall US rate or compare the overall Israeli rate to the settlements.

1) The US is a large place, for example Detroit's rate is 54.6 per 100,000 so places like that skew the average. Consider Ocean county NJ where the rate is about 1.08 per 100,000.
(BTW Rabbi Aviner's numbers are way off)

2) The overall Israeli rate might not be representative of the rate in Yesha. Again averages skew the results. Saying that Israel as a whole is safe, isn't saying anything about what the Satmer Rebbe said.

[churnbabychurn]

Can't compare the overall US rate or compare the overall Israeli rate to the settlements.

1) The US is a large place, for example Detroit's rate is 54.6 per 100,000 so places like that skew the average. Consider Ocean county NJ where the rate is about 1.08 per 100,000.
(BTW Rabbi Aviner's numbers are way off)

2) The overall Israeli rate might not be representative of the rate in Yesha. Again averages skew the results. Saying that Israel as a whole is safe, isn't saying anything about what the Satmer Rebbe said.

And the rate amongst the Jews in ocean county is virtually nonexistent. Its pathetic to argue that its somehow safer to be surrounded by bloodthirsty arabs, notwithstanding the "mighty" IDF.

[TimT]

Slightly off topic, isn't the Admor from Satmar's wife a Hebrew speaking Israeli?

Thats another infight

[asd]

Every yeshivishe guy(who's hashkofos are brisk-lite) agrees with the gist of what he is saying. Rav shach famously stopped a yeshiva community that wanted to form in emmanuel for this reason.That being said the timing wasnt right (although i doubt he realized it would be broadcast across the world) and I think he got his facts wrong as they were not in the settlements.

[churnbabychurn]

Every yeshivishe guy(who's hashkofos are brisk-lite) agrees with the gist of what he is saying. Rav shach famously stopped a yeshiva community that wanted to form in emmanuel for this reason.That being said the timing wasnt right (although i doubt he realized it would be broadcast across the world) and I think he got his facts wrong as they were not in the settlements.

+1 basically covered it all.

[tzvicoco]

And the rate amongst the Jews in ocean county is virtually nonexistent. Its pathetic to argue that its somehow safer to be surrounded by bloodthirsty arabs, notwithstanding the "mighty" IDF.

I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. The death rate by homicide in the West Bank AND Gaza combined in 2012 was 7 in 100,000 (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5). Remember, that's including Palestinians. Meanwhile, the odds of dying from traffic-related fatalities in the US is 11.4 in 100,000. The odds for dying from traffic-relate fatalities in Israel is 3.4 in 100,000. Now, even if you add the chances of dying by homicide in the West Bank with the chances of being killed in a car in Israel, you only get to 10.4/100,000, which is still significantly less than the odds of being killed in a car in the US.

[ilherman]

I really don't get you people.

What he said was true?!?

Well, you don't understand what Satmar says that if all the Orthodox Jews would follow the Satmar שיטה and they would have never send members to the כנסת and not participate in the בחירות etc, then we would never have to deal with גיות בני ישיבות. So you basically understand what you WANT to understand.

[churnbabychurn]

I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. The death rate by homicide in the West Bank AND Gaza combined in 2012 was 7 in 100,000 (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5). Remember, that's including Palestinians. Meanwhile, the odds of dying from traffic-related fatalities in the US is 11.4 in 100,000. The odds for dying from traffic-relate fatalities in Israel is 3.4 in 100,000. Now, even if you add the chances of dying by homicide in the West Bank with the chances of being killed in a car in Israel, you only get to 10.4/100,000, which is still significantly less than the odds of being killed in a car in the US.

This is not a number game. We are not necessarily discussing statistics.


~Six million jews have set themselves up to live surrounded by billions of "pere odoms", and some have even moved in literally next door to blood thirsty, rioting terrorists.
The whole country is in a terrible matzav of sakana every day. Its only through hashems protection that they are still around.  If you honestly think that the IDF won the 6 day war, the YK war of even the various intifadas you are delusional.

How the heck are we even comparing this to living in north america??!

[Centro]

So you basically understand what you WANT to understand.

+1

Rule in life; You will never get to understand something if you don't want to understand it.

[yitzf]

I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. The death rate by homicide in the West Bank AND Gaza combined in 2012 was 7 in 100,000 (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5). Remember, that's including Palestinians. Meanwhile, the odds of dying from traffic-related fatalities in the US is 11.4 in 100,000. The odds for dying from traffic-relate fatalities in Israel is 3.4 in 100,000. Now, even if you add the chances of dying by homicide in the West Bank with the chances of being killed in a car in Israel, you only get to 10.4/100,000, which is still significantly less than the odds of being killed in a car in the US.

Truthfully, comparing traffic accidents to homicides is silly, but your numbers aren't correct either.

You can't compare the rate in a country where there are 797 vehicles per 1000 people to Israel where there are only 350.
In other words in Israel there are only 44% of the amount of cars per capita, so 43% of 10.7 (the 2012 US rate) is 4.7, and add the US murder rate of 4.8 you get a US combined rate of 9.5 which is lower than the combined rate for the territories of 10.4.

[Dan]

The whole country is in a terrible matzav of sakana every day. Its only through hashems protection that they are still around.  If you honestly think that the IDF won the 6 day war, the YK war of even the various intifadas you are delusional.

How the heck are we even comparing this to living in north america??!

What are you saying??
That in North America we live without hashem's protection?  Germany proves that in the blink of an eye we can go from being an integral part of a society to being wiped off the face of the earth.

And terrorism can happen anywhere. If anything NYC is more at risk of a mass-scale terror attack due to being less prepared than Israel and on a grander scale (see also, 9/11)

Anywhere we live is only with hashem's protection.  Only difference is how it seems to our simple eyes.

Hitchhiking is a dangerous game anywhere in the world.  But aside from that there's no massive risk anywhere in Israel any more than there's a risk living in NYC.  Even basic numbers don't back up what you're saying.

[Baruch]

This is not a number game. We are not necessarily discussing statistics.


~Six million jews have set themselves up to live surrounded by billions of "pere odoms", and some have even moved in literally next door to blood thirsty, rioting terrorists.
The whole country is in a terrible matzav of sakana every day. Its only through hashems protection that they are still around.  If you honestly think that the IDF won the 6 day war, the YK war of even the various intifadas you are delusional.

How the heck are we even comparing this to living in north america??!

The Satmar Rebbe Zt"l was delusional?  (He believed that it was Israel's strength [or the sitra acher] that won the wars, not Hashem).

[tzvicoco]

What are you saying??
That in North America we live without hashem's protection?  Germany proves that in the blink of an eye we can go from being an integral part of a society to being wiped off the face of the earth.

And terrorism can happen anywhere. If anything NYC is more at risk of a mass-scale terror attack due to being less prepared than Israel and on a grander scale (see also, 9/11)

Anywhere we live is only with hashem's protection.  Only difference is how it seems to our simple eyes.

Hitchhiking is a dangerous game anywhere in the world.  But aside from that there's no massive risk anywhere in Israel any more than there's a risk living in NYC.  Even basic numbers don't back up what you're saying.

+1

[tzvicoco]

This is not a number game. We are not necessarily discussing statistics.


~Six million jews have set themselves up to live surrounded by billions of "pere odoms", and some have even moved in literally next door to blood thirsty, rioting terrorists.
The whole country is in a terrible matzav of sakana every day. Its only through hashems protection that they are still around.  If you honestly think that the IDF won the 6 day war, the YK war of even the various intifadas you are delusional.

How the heck are we even comparing this to living in north america??!

Oh, I thought this was an actual discussion, not just an opportunity for emotional hyperbole. Listen, the facts on the ground are that Israel, including the settlements in the West bank, are as safe for an average Jew, if not safer, than America or Europe. And furthermore, being there sends a message, and makes you an active and integral part of Jewish history, not just a spectator on the sidelines.

[Dan]

The Satmar Rebbe Zt"l was delusional?  (He believed that it was Israel's strength [or the sitra acher] that won the wars, not Hashem).

If the sitra achra won the war does the sitra achra also keep 99.99% of the jews in the settlements safe?

[tzvicoco]

Truthfully, comparing traffic accidents to homicides is silly, but your numbers aren't correct either.

You can't compare the rate in a country where there are 797 vehicles per 1000 people to Israel where there are only 350.
In other words in Israel there are only 44% of the amount of cars per capita, so 43% of 10.7 (the 2012 US rate) is 4.7, and add the US murder rate of 4.8 you get a US combined rate of 9.5 which is lower than the combined rate for the territories of 10.4.

Not so sure I follow your logic - those numbers are per 100,000 people in the population, not per 100,000 people with cars. So if you take 100,000 people in America, 11.4 will die in car accidents. If you take the same number of people in the West Bank, 10.4 will die from car accidents and homicide combined. Which 100,00 is safer to be a part of?

[Centro]

If the sitra achra won the war does the sitra achra also keep 99.99% of the jews in the settlements safe?

Dan, my English is quite poor therefore it's a lil difficult for me to explain stuff, but if you're interested/willing to hear then I can try to explain you why (I [we should] strongly believe) Satmar ruv was right with what he said...

[Baruch]

If the sitra achra won the war does the sitra achra also keep 99.99% of the jews in the settlements safe?

I'm not here to defend the Satmar Rebbe's shita. I don't belong to his school of thought. I was just pointing out that that was his shita.

[churnbabychurn]

What are you saying??
That in North America we live without hashem's protection?  Germany proves that in the blink of an eye we can go from being an integral part of a society to being wiped off the face of the earth.

And terrorism can happen anywhere. If anything NYC is more at risk of a mass-scale terror attack due to being less prepared than Israel and on a grander scale (see also, 9/11)

Anywhere we live is only with hashem's protection.  Only difference is how it seems to our simple eyes.

Hitchhiking is a dangerous game anywhere in the world.  But aside from that there's no massive risk anywhere in Israel any more than there's a risk living in NYC.  Even basic numbers don't back up what you're saying.

Exactly!
And since we live in this world, we must make sure not to put ourselves in a situation where is seems yo us like there is more danger. Even though hashem protects us, we don't walk into a shaky structure. Of course he can save us, but the goal is to live not al yedai nes.