Topic Wiki

I feel compelled to speak about a "Kol Koreh" signed by a number of Rabbis making the rounds and being published together with an alleged "translation" or "explanation" of the hebrew side.
On the Hebrew side it speaks out against the credit card application farms and their methods as I wrote in point 2 here: http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/46584

However on the English side the author writes out against buying gift cards and every other method of manufactured spend to earn miles.

I figured it was worth investigating what exactly the Rabbis signed off on.  I called and asked Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky, the Rosh Yeshiva in Philadelphia, whether he agreed with the English side.  He said he never saw an English side and that it was terrible that it would imply that he was agreeing with anything that wasn't explicitly written on the Hebrew side.  And he said that it has to be corrected so that people don't get that impression.

He does not feel that "all methods of manufacturing spend for miles are abusive," and indeed if there are legal ways to do it, then people should go right ahead and earn the miles.

I also called Rav Dov Kahan, founder of Bais Din Maysharim in Lakewood.  He also did not agree that "all methods of manufactured spend are abusive" but felt that methods in which each party (the store and the credit card in the case of a gift card purchase) say that you can do so and it's not against any of their terms, would be permissible and that isn't what the Kol Koreh was targeting.

-Dan




Reply #194
Rav Kamenetsky just called me back.

He says aderaba, if people can find a way to purchase miles via stores who charge for gift cards and and they can get miles then good for them.  Nothing wrong with that kind of MS at all and he had no idea why the author would deceive him like that.

The problem he signed against was the companies opening cards for people and their methods, nothing else.


Reply #280
The only kind of MS that R' Kaminetzky said isn't "yashur" and that he was signing onto was for refundable items.

He wasn't told anything about any other kind of MS.





« Last edited by Dan on July 10, 2014, 09:49:35 PM »

Author Topic: Kol Koreh against MS  (Read 93150 times)

Offline EJB

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Sep 2012
  • Posts: 5409
  • Total likes: 254
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
    • View Profile
Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #120 on: July 08, 2014, 09:27:59 AM »
It's hard to read.

Are you on a phone? On my computer it's fine.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67598
  • Total likes: 16909
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #121 on: July 08, 2014, 09:28:10 AM »
http://www.lakewoodshopper.com/

its around page 70, download etc.
I don't think there's a way to download that and I don't see it anywhere around 70.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67598
  • Total likes: 16909
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #122 on: July 08, 2014, 09:28:47 AM »
Are you on a phone? On my computer it's fine.
You have to strain to read it.
A scan would be much easier to read.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7355
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #123 on: July 08, 2014, 09:30:13 AM »
I don't think there's a way to download that and I don't see it anywhere around 70.
its age 140 sorry, go to bottom of page, put in 140. Bottom left can download.

Offline Baruch

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 2604
  • Total likes: 335
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #124 on: July 08, 2014, 09:32:38 AM »
There is a download option on the left bottom. It is page 140. skip to the end and go back a few pages.
There's also a magnify option, which is very clear on a laptop.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7355
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #125 on: July 08, 2014, 09:34:19 AM »
You have to strain to read it.
A scan would be much easier to read.
email sent.
your welcome!  :)

Offline Baruch

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 2604
  • Total likes: 335
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #126 on: July 08, 2014, 09:35:17 AM »
How do you upload a pdf on ddf?

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7355
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #127 on: July 08, 2014, 09:35:45 AM »
How do you upload a pdf on ddf?
it has to be small..

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67598
  • Total likes: 16909
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #128 on: July 08, 2014, 09:36:17 AM »
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Baruch

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 2604
  • Total likes: 335
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #129 on: July 08, 2014, 09:36:32 AM »
How do you do it?

Offline Toasted

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Oct 2013
  • Posts: 1071
  • Total likes: 222
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #130 on: July 08, 2014, 09:37:26 AM »
I am shocked that they didn't ask Harav Dan Eleff, Rosh Hayeshiva of the World Wide Web, to sign. He has more followers in Lakewood than several of the signatories. 

Offline Baruch

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 2604
  • Total likes: 335
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #131 on: July 08, 2014, 09:37:36 AM »
I'd love to hear Dan's analysis on the Kol Koreh.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67598
  • Total likes: 16909
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #132 on: July 08, 2014, 09:38:37 AM »
I'd love to hear Dan's analysis on this matter.
I don't really want to weigh in without finding out what exactly these Rabbis signed onto and how much they understand and know.

I'd love to hear first hand how buying GCs from Staples and cashing out with Evolve violates halacha in any way.  I think the english letter goes too far in its scope and should have stopped at refundable tickets and the abusive ads. And going on to AA GCs is telling...

Anyone have any contact info for any of them?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7355
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #133 on: July 08, 2014, 09:38:41 AM »

Offline TimT

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 22077
  • Total likes: 7130
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #134 on: July 08, 2014, 09:39:31 AM »
I don't really want to weigh in without finding out what exactly these Rabbis signed onto and how much they understand and know.

Anyone have any contact info for any of them?
You're going to call them ?

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67598
  • Total likes: 16909
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #135 on: July 08, 2014, 09:40:20 AM »
You're going to call them ?
I would.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7355
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #136 on: July 08, 2014, 09:40:32 AM »
I don't really want to weigh in without finding out what exactly these Rabbis signed onto and how much they understand and know.

Anyone have any contact info for any of them?
I would try R Duvy kahan, probably most accessible of the list...He has official hours @ beis din meishorim iirc..
 Next would be R shmuel kamentzky

R' gisinger is very busy..

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67598
  • Total likes: 16909
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #137 on: July 08, 2014, 09:41:56 AM »
I would try R Duvy kahan, probably most accessible of the list...
 Next would be R shmuel kamentzky

R' gisinger is very busy..
Email/PM me if you have their contact info.
Thanks.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline lunatic

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2009
  • Posts: 4430
  • Total likes: 29
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8
    • View Profile
Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #138 on: July 08, 2014, 09:42:23 AM »
I would.

Dan, please call them, we would love to hear what they really think

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67598
  • Total likes: 16909
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #139 on: July 08, 2014, 09:42:52 AM »
Dan, please call them, we would love to hear what they really think
If I had contact info I'd be happy to.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.