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I feel compelled to speak about a "Kol Koreh" signed by a number of Rabbis making the rounds and being published together with an alleged "translation" or "explanation" of the hebrew side.
On the Hebrew side it speaks out against the credit card application farms and their methods as I wrote in point 2 here: http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/46584

However on the English side the author writes out against buying gift cards and every other method of manufactured spend to earn miles.

I figured it was worth investigating what exactly the Rabbis signed off on.  I called and asked Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky, the Rosh Yeshiva in Philadelphia, whether he agreed with the English side.  He said he never saw an English side and that it was terrible that it would imply that he was agreeing with anything that wasn't explicitly written on the Hebrew side.  And he said that it has to be corrected so that people don't get that impression.

He does not feel that "all methods of manufacturing spend for miles are abusive," and indeed if there are legal ways to do it, then people should go right ahead and earn the miles.

I also called Rav Dov Kahan, founder of Bais Din Maysharim in Lakewood.  He also did not agree that "all methods of manufactured spend are abusive" but felt that methods in which each party (the store and the credit card in the case of a gift card purchase) say that you can do so and it's not against any of their terms, would be permissible and that isn't what the Kol Koreh was targeting.

-Dan




Reply #194
Rav Kamenetsky just called me back.

He says aderaba, if people can find a way to purchase miles via stores who charge for gift cards and and they can get miles then good for them.  Nothing wrong with that kind of MS at all and he had no idea why the author would deceive him like that.

The problem he signed against was the companies opening cards for people and their methods, nothing else.


Reply #280
The only kind of MS that R' Kaminetzky said isn't "yashur" and that he was signing onto was for refundable items.

He wasn't told anything about any other kind of MS.





« Last edited by Dan on July 10, 2014, 09:49:35 PM »

Author Topic: Kol Koreh against MS  (Read 93160 times)

Offline Toasted

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #140 on: July 08, 2014, 09:43:56 AM »
I don't really want to weigh in without finding out what exactly these Rabbis signed onto and how much they understand and know.

I'd love to hear first hand how buying GCs from Staples and cashing out with Evolve violates halacha in any way.  I think the english letter goes too far in its scope and should have stopped at refundable tickets and the abusive ads.

Anyone have any contact info for any of them?

Best person would be Rabbi Kahan. He's runs  a very prominent Choshen Mishpat Bais Din under the auspices of R' Nissim Karelitz. Bright, practical and very knowledgeable.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 09:51:35 AM by Toasted »

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #141 on: July 08, 2014, 09:45:40 AM »
Don't bother with R' Klein 

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #142 on: July 08, 2014, 09:46:22 AM »
Don't bother with R' Klein
alol

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #143 on: July 08, 2014, 09:47:34 AM »
Don't bother with R' Klein

Don't bother listing all the people you don't like. Just some constructive contacts for Dan.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #144 on: July 08, 2014, 09:48:13 AM »
Best person would be Rabbi Kahan. He's runs  a very prominent Choshen Mishpat Bais Din under the auspices of R' Nissim Karelitz. Bright, practical and very knowledgeable.
Don't think he would appreciate his number posted here
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline TimT

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #145 on: July 08, 2014, 09:49:01 AM »
Don't bother listing all the people you don't like. Just some constructive contacts for Dan.
I have nothing against him & I was being very constructive. Trying to save dan an earache.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #146 on: July 08, 2014, 09:49:35 AM »
Don't think he would appreciate his number posted here
+1, call the bais din number.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #147 on: July 08, 2014, 09:52:06 AM »
Don't think he would appreciate his number posted here

+1 Removed.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #148 on: July 08, 2014, 09:58:57 AM »
PMed some contact info
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #149 on: July 08, 2014, 10:00:34 AM »
+1, call the bais din number.
What's the beis din number?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #150 on: July 08, 2014, 10:04:19 AM »
PMed
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #151 on: July 08, 2014, 10:04:45 AM »


BTW your old friend R marburger is on Bd mayshrim also :)

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #152 on: July 08, 2014, 10:59:25 AM »
Reached Rav Kamenetsky.

He never saw anything in English and is furious that they added that or implied anything in his name besides the hebrew side.
He still hasn't seen the english side, I'm sending it to him now.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #153 on: July 08, 2014, 11:01:49 AM »
Does anyone have a translation of the hebrew side?
Workflowy. You won't know what you're missing until you try it.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #154 on: July 08, 2014, 11:05:06 AM »
Reached Rav Kamenetsky.

He never saw anything in English and is furious that they added that or implied anything in his name besides the hebrew side.
He still hasn't seen the english side, I'm sending it to him now.
Nice, keep us posted!

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #155 on: July 08, 2014, 11:05:14 AM »
Reached Rav Kamenetsky.

He never saw anything in English and is furious that they added that or implied anything in his name besides the hebrew side.
He still hasn't seen the english side, I'm sending it to him now.
Unfortunately a lot of these kol korehs go this way. A different time R' Belsky wrote a letter in the paper saying they had added stuff in after he signed. (Might've been the lipa ban,not sure)

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #156 on: July 08, 2014, 11:15:20 AM »
Reached Rav Kamenetsky.

He never saw anything in English and is furious that they added that or implied anything in his name besides the hebrew side.
He still hasn't seen the english side, I'm sending it to him now.
So what methods of MS were they referring to when they signed?

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #157 on: July 08, 2014, 11:16:59 AM »
So what methods of MS were they referring to when they signed?

And did he mention what he thinks is OK vs not OK?

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #158 on: July 08, 2014, 11:17:09 AM »
So what methods of MS were they referring to when they signed?
Perhaps the agencies signing people up and doing refundables?
I sent him the letter and will call back this afternoon to clarify what he was told and what he thinks is OK or not OK.

But he was very unhappy that he wasn't shown the english side as well.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #159 on: July 08, 2014, 11:27:20 AM »
So you're gonna give him a private DDS to explain how all this works? I think it's funny that R' Shmuel will know more than most bloggers!  ;D