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I feel compelled to speak about a "Kol Koreh" signed by a number of Rabbis making the rounds and being published together with an alleged "translation" or "explanation" of the hebrew side.
On the Hebrew side it speaks out against the credit card application farms and their methods as I wrote in point 2 here: http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/46584

However on the English side the author writes out against buying gift cards and every other method of manufactured spend to earn miles.

I figured it was worth investigating what exactly the Rabbis signed off on.  I called and asked Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky, the Rosh Yeshiva in Philadelphia, whether he agreed with the English side.  He said he never saw an English side and that it was terrible that it would imply that he was agreeing with anything that wasn't explicitly written on the Hebrew side.  And he said that it has to be corrected so that people don't get that impression.

He does not feel that "all methods of manufacturing spend for miles are abusive," and indeed if there are legal ways to do it, then people should go right ahead and earn the miles.

I also called Rav Dov Kahan, founder of Bais Din Maysharim in Lakewood.  He also did not agree that "all methods of manufactured spend are abusive" but felt that methods in which each party (the store and the credit card in the case of a gift card purchase) say that you can do so and it's not against any of their terms, would be permissible and that isn't what the Kol Koreh was targeting.

-Dan




Reply #194
Rav Kamenetsky just called me back.

He says aderaba, if people can find a way to purchase miles via stores who charge for gift cards and and they can get miles then good for them.  Nothing wrong with that kind of MS at all and he had no idea why the author would deceive him like that.

The problem he signed against was the companies opening cards for people and their methods, nothing else.


Reply #280
The only kind of MS that R' Kaminetzky said isn't "yashur" and that he was signing onto was for refundable items.

He wasn't told anything about any other kind of MS.





« Last edited by Dan on July 10, 2014, 09:49:35 PM »

Author Topic: Kol Koreh against MS  (Read 93174 times)

Offline Super Speed

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #160 on: July 08, 2014, 11:31:30 AM »
So you're gonna give him a private DDS to explain how all this works? I think it's funny that R' Shmuel will know more than most bloggers!  ;D
ALOL


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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #161 on: July 08, 2014, 11:33:06 AM »
Someone who has one of these businesses called more then half the Rabbanim on it and they said they were never saw or signed the english side.


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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #162 on: July 08, 2014, 11:39:46 AM »
Someone who has one of these businesses called more then half the Rabbanim on it and they said they were never saw or signed the english side.

What's that going to help him, either way the Hebrew side was against such businesses?

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #163 on: July 08, 2014, 11:40:01 AM »
Judging by the difference between the English and the Hebrew side, I can only imagine the difference between the Hebrew side and the letter they actually signed. Clearly the person behind this is not reliable
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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #164 on: July 08, 2014, 11:41:49 AM »
Reached Rav Kamenetsky.

He never saw anything in English and is furious that they added that or implied anything in his name besides the hebrew side.
He still hasn't seen the english side, I'm sending it to him now.

Someone who has one of these businesses called more then half the Rabbanim on it and they said they were never saw or signed the english side.

If you bother to read, the english side does not imply that the rabbonim saw or signed it. It's more like an open letter airing all the writer's grievances. He shares what he believes are not Kosher practices. Take it or leave it.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #165 on: July 08, 2014, 11:42:08 AM »
Your all missing the point by focusing on exactly what was signed ,to ease your guilty conscience . 

You think for one second Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetzky and all other signatures endorse any of these practices ??

Debate all you want what they would sign publicly or not , discuss whether its muttar according to the letter of the law .

You will never get most of the signatures to say its appropriate . Dream on if you think otherwise 

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #166 on: July 08, 2014, 11:42:19 AM »
It's amazing how the people screaming "Kovod Hatorah, Kovod Hatorah" seem to be the same people who have no problem being mevazeh the Rabbonimm by misrepresenting their Psakim/Kol Korehs.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #167 on: July 08, 2014, 11:42:39 AM »
Judging by the difference between the english and the Hebrew side, I can only imagine the difference between the Hebrew side, and the letter they actually signed
100%. They fill in all the blanks after the rabbonim sign the paper. That's why all KK's can't be taken at face value.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #168 on: July 08, 2014, 11:44:19 AM »
If you bother to read, the english side does not imply that the rabbonim saw or signed it. It's more like an open letter airing all the writer's grievances. He shares what he believes are not Kosher practices. Take it or leave it.
But when u stick them both together most people think that it's a translation. That's what they want u to think.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #169 on: July 08, 2014, 11:51:37 AM »
I think the english side is much too long to be a translation.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #170 on: July 08, 2014, 11:53:25 AM »
I think the english side is much too long to be a translation.
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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #171 on: July 08, 2014, 11:55:05 AM »
I think the english side is much too long to be a translation.
It could be going more into detail. He should have written on the English version that it wasn't endorsed.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #172 on: July 08, 2014, 11:55:24 AM »
But when u stick them both together most people think that it's a translation. That's what they want u to think.
Either a translation or the rationale given to the Rabonim to sign on. It says that it's explaining the hebrew side when really it has nothing to do with it.
It's very misleading IMHO.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #173 on: July 08, 2014, 11:56:19 AM »
Your all missing the point by focusing on exactly what was signed ,to ease your guilty conscience . 

You think for one second Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetzky and all other signatures endorse any of these practices ??

Debate all you want what they would sign publicly or not , discuss whether its muttar according to the letter of the law .

You will never get most of the signatures to say its appropriate . Dream on if you think otherwise 
Frankly I have no idea what he feels about going to Staples and evolving their gift cards.
But I doubt it was ever explained to him properly and I intend to do so (if he so desires) and hear his opinion.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #174 on: July 08, 2014, 12:00:23 PM »
Either a translation or the rationale given to the Rabonim to sign on. It says that it's explaining the hebrew side when really it has nothing to do with it.
It's very misleading IMHO.
Beyond misleading , and did more harm then good to his "cause"

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #175 on: July 08, 2014, 12:00:55 PM »

But when u stick them both together most people think that it's a translation. That's what they want u to think.
+1 that's what I thought.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #176 on: July 08, 2014, 12:05:05 PM »
Frankly I have no idea what he feels about going to Staples and evolving their gift cards.
But I doubt it was ever explained to him properly and I intend to do so (if he so desires) and hear his opinion.
PGGM , "redeeming" Barclay arrivals etc etc .

Again Im not referring to the letter of the law . But neither was the Hebrew KK

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #177 on: July 08, 2014, 12:08:01 PM »
PGGM , "redeeming" Barclay arrivals etc etc .

Again Im not referring to the letter of the law . But neither was the Hebrew KK
What do those things have to do with the KK?
They singled out gift cards for whatever reason instead of being happy taking down the companies advertising $5K and doing refundables. Even going above the letter of the law it's tough to see the chillul hashem is with GCs. And it only weakened the KK IMHO.

Either way it's an embarrassment that the English was added regardless of what it implied.  Embarrassment to the organizer and to the Rabonim who signed the hebrew.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #178 on: July 08, 2014, 12:10:05 PM »
Someone who has one of these businesses called more then half the Rabbanim on it and they said they were never saw or signed the english side.


What's that going to help him, either way the Hebrew side was against such businesses?
Because then he doesn't have to listen to anything ::)
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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #179 on: July 08, 2014, 12:11:05 PM »
If you bother to read, the english side does not imply that the rabbonim saw or signed it. It's more like an open letter airing all the writer's grievances. He shares what he believes are not Kosher practices. Take it or leave it.

+1. The English "Letter of explanation" starts off by saying "the enclosed letter signed by..." - meaning, the enclosed letter was signed off on. Not this "explanation." IMO I think it was made pretty clear what was being signed and what not.