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I feel compelled to speak about a "Kol Koreh" signed by a number of Rabbis making the rounds and being published together with an alleged "translation" or "explanation" of the hebrew side.
On the Hebrew side it speaks out against the credit card application farms and their methods as I wrote in point 2 here: http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/46584

However on the English side the author writes out against buying gift cards and every other method of manufactured spend to earn miles.

I figured it was worth investigating what exactly the Rabbis signed off on.  I called and asked Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky, the Rosh Yeshiva in Philadelphia, whether he agreed with the English side.  He said he never saw an English side and that it was terrible that it would imply that he was agreeing with anything that wasn't explicitly written on the Hebrew side.  And he said that it has to be corrected so that people don't get that impression.

He does not feel that "all methods of manufacturing spend for miles are abusive," and indeed if there are legal ways to do it, then people should go right ahead and earn the miles.

I also called Rav Dov Kahan, founder of Bais Din Maysharim in Lakewood.  He also did not agree that "all methods of manufactured spend are abusive" but felt that methods in which each party (the store and the credit card in the case of a gift card purchase) say that you can do so and it's not against any of their terms, would be permissible and that isn't what the Kol Koreh was targeting.

-Dan




Reply #194
Rav Kamenetsky just called me back.

He says aderaba, if people can find a way to purchase miles via stores who charge for gift cards and and they can get miles then good for them.  Nothing wrong with that kind of MS at all and he had no idea why the author would deceive him like that.

The problem he signed against was the companies opening cards for people and their methods, nothing else.


Reply #280
The only kind of MS that R' Kaminetzky said isn't "yashur" and that he was signing onto was for refundable items.

He wasn't told anything about any other kind of MS.





« Last edited by Dan on July 10, 2014, 09:49:35 PM »

Author Topic: Kol Koreh against MS  (Read 50852 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2014, 02:06:23 PM »
Does anyone have a link to this court docket mentioned?
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Offline Baruch

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2014, 02:09:04 PM »
It's clearly aimed at the businesses that run those full page ads in the newspapers and to protect against chillul hashem. I don't think the organizers care much about DDF honestly. But that doesn't mean all methods of profiting from CCs are equally kosher.
But the letter implied that the whole DDF is treif - benefiting from a company when it wasn't it's intention that you should benefit.

(According to that logic going to Shoprite to get a watermelon for $4 and not buying anything else is wrong).
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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2014, 02:12:26 PM »
It's clearly aimed at the businesses that run those full page ads in the newspapers and to protect against chillul hashem. I don't think the organizers care much about DDF honestly. But that doesn't mean all methods of profiting from CCs are equally kosher.
+1

Does anyone have a link to this court docket mentioned?
I believe it was brought here at one point.
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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2014, 02:15:52 PM »
(According to that logic going to Shoprite to get a watermelon for $4 and not buying anything else is wrong).
more like the watermelon is $4 with a $10 dollar purchase and you did not make the $10 purchase but still got the watermelon for $4.
I just found a new supply of forks!

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2014, 02:16:59 PM »
I know first hand that at least one of the people behind this is a well respected Lakewood rav and dayan who brought up the topic to the forefront. Not everything the Rabanim do is at the behest of hot headed trouble makers.
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Offline Baruch

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2014, 02:20:01 PM »
more like the watermelon is $4 with a $10 dollar purchase and you did not make the $10 purchase but still got the watermelon for $4.
-1
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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2014, 02:22:42 PM »
The problem is that when buying GCs and the likes, they charge you an additional fee. That fee is for processing fees and profit. They love that! What IS wrong, is getting a signup bonus through buying refundable tickets, transferring the points, getting the refund for the ticket, and walk away with the points w/o doing any spending.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2014, 02:24:12 PM »
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline Baruch

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2014, 02:32:13 PM »
-1  :)
You obviously didn't read the english statement closely.
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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2014, 02:33:46 PM »
You obviously didn't read the english statement closely.
sorry, I have a problem with English. you are probably right.
I just found a new supply of forks!

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2014, 03:22:16 PM »
In many states loss leaders are illegal and the $4 watermelon still turns a profit.

43K points, which even at just CB (I'd assume more expensive for airline points) is $430 for $3K in spending is a LOSS for Chase.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2014, 03:24:48 PM »

In many states loss leaders are illegal and the $4 watermelon still turns a profit.

43K points, which even at just CB (I'd assume more expensive for airline points) is $430 for $3K in spending is a LOSS for Chase.
And getting 2.2 on the Arrival for regular spend is not a loss? It probably is a loss but they have enough fees and interest and hope you stumble upon it.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2014, 03:28:06 PM »
And getting 2.2 on the Arrival for regular spend is not a loss? It probably is a loss but they have enough fees and interest and hope you stumble upon it.

For most spend, no.
Additionally, keep in mind that the 2.2 probably costs them closer to 1.8 due to people that don't redeem for travel/don't redeem at all. Those people exist.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2014, 03:28:29 PM »
And getting 2.2 on the Arrival for regular spend is not a loss? It probably is a loss but they have enough fees and interest and hope you stumble upon it.
1. Says who?

2. And therefore? B/c one CC from one company takes a loss, you can go make a loss for others?

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2014, 03:29:42 PM »

For most spend, no
I'm talking about base spend on the Arrival, I don't think Barclays is getting 2.2 cents for every dollar you swipe, CMIIW. If that's the case then how can you use the card???