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I feel compelled to speak about a "Kol Koreh" signed by a number of Rabbis making the rounds and being published together with an alleged "translation" or "explanation" of the hebrew side.
On the Hebrew side it speaks out against the credit card application farms and their methods as I wrote in point 2 here: http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/46584

However on the English side the author writes out against buying gift cards and every other method of manufactured spend to earn miles.

I figured it was worth investigating what exactly the Rabbis signed off on.  I called and asked Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky, the Rosh Yeshiva in Philadelphia, whether he agreed with the English side.  He said he never saw an English side and that it was terrible that it would imply that he was agreeing with anything that wasn't explicitly written on the Hebrew side.  And he said that it has to be corrected so that people don't get that impression.

He does not feel that "all methods of manufacturing spend for miles are abusive," and indeed if there are legal ways to do it, then people should go right ahead and earn the miles.

I also called Rav Dov Kahan, founder of Bais Din Maysharim in Lakewood.  He also did not agree that "all methods of manufactured spend are abusive" but felt that methods in which each party (the store and the credit card in the case of a gift card purchase) say that you can do so and it's not against any of their terms, would be permissible and that isn't what the Kol Koreh was targeting.

-Dan




Reply #194
Rav Kamenetsky just called me back.

He says aderaba, if people can find a way to purchase miles via stores who charge for gift cards and and they can get miles then good for them.  Nothing wrong with that kind of MS at all and he had no idea why the author would deceive him like that.

The problem he signed against was the companies opening cards for people and their methods, nothing else.


Reply #280
The only kind of MS that R' Kaminetzky said isn't "yashur" and that he was signing onto was for refundable items.

He wasn't told anything about any other kind of MS.





« Last edited by Dan on July 10, 2014, 09:49:35 PM »

Author Topic: Kol Koreh against MS  (Read 48860 times)

Offline Super Speed

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #45 on: July 04, 2014, 03:30:44 PM »

1. Says who?

2. And therefore? B/c one CC from one company takes a loss, you can go make a loss for others?
Huh??? The way the CC mainly makes their money is from late payments and interest, so therefore I have to pay late to incur fees so that they can make me a profitable customer???

Offline Redbull3

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Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #46 on: July 04, 2014, 03:42:22 PM »
Agreed about arrival they aren't making money on transactions only revolvers. There are a lot of examples of companies that don't make money off of ALL customers that doesn't make me unethical for being part of the group that skates by does it? Evolve only makes money when some people (not us) use express payment right? Those revenues pay for all operations including OUR use. Some customers compensate for others.

Offline Super Speed

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #47 on: July 04, 2014, 03:47:34 PM »

Agreed about arrival they aren't making money on transactions only revolvers. There are a lot of examples of companies that don't make money off of ALL customers that doesn't make me unethical for being part of the group that skates by does it? Evolve only makes money when some people (not us) use express payment right? Those revenues pay for all operations including OUR use. Some customers compensate for others.
My point exactly, thank you.

Offline EJB

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #48 on: July 04, 2014, 04:00:51 PM »
From the letter:
Quote
Promotional offers are not meant for people signing up through these "businesses" designed to prey on loopholes, and certainly credit card companies and other business involved in these promotions are not interested in giving handouts.

But it's OK if the handouts come from the US government  ???

The above conversation has spiraled out of the scope of even the English side of the "Kol Koreh," which the Rabbonim may have not seen. IMO the letter does not imply that it is assur/wrong to get more money out of a promotion than the company running the promotion gets (e.g., spend with a 5% credit card when the CC company does not make 5% out of your transactions). The letter says that it's wrong to profit at the expense of another company through loopholes that a company does not intend for you to use. Many people on DDF disagree with this statement. Many agree with it, but disagree with what practices a company intends for you to use, or believe that if a company doesn't restrict a particular practice, it is OK. But I don't think it's such a crazy statement.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 04:19:30 PM by EJB »

Offline yzj

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #49 on: July 04, 2014, 04:03:27 PM »
I can't vouch for all of the Rabbonim who signed the hebrew but the posek who signed that I know, regularly tells people all that it says in the english version. If anything he goes somewhat further than the english version, so I would take an educated guess that at least many of the signers are in agreement with the english as well.

Offline EJB

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #50 on: July 04, 2014, 04:08:07 PM »
I can't vouch for all of the Rabbonim who signed the hebrew but the posek who signed that I know, regularly tells people all that it says in the english version. If anything he goes somewhat further than the english version, so I would take an educated guess that at least many of the signers are in agreement with the english as well.

+1. I don't think the kol koreh is aimed at that though, I think that's more of an aside and something that will be harder for the rabbonim to stop.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #51 on: July 04, 2014, 04:15:36 PM »
The english page is addressed to the rabbonim. Implying that they read it and signed based on it.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2014, 04:24:10 PM »
The english page is addressed to the rabbonim. Implying that they read it and signed based on it.

Or at least to make you THINK that

Offline yzj

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2014, 04:27:36 PM »
quote from credit card forum:
Yes you will get your money in quick timeing. 
Yes they will open ein#'s/make up 5 business.
Yes you will get 4 or 5 of the same amex business type credit cards per person.
Yes they will write your income at 300k on each card application.
Yes they will do refundabel purchases and cancel the purchase once the points are pushed through.
Yes they will use the $200 travel benefit.
Yes they will close all the cards after points are out. Usally all with in 5 weeks.

So now that you know what they are doing you got to be crazy to use their servises.
For their sake let's hope someone or some letter can stop them before.............

WOW!

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2014, 04:45:56 PM »
Link?

Offline yzj

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #55 on: July 04, 2014, 04:57:22 PM »

Offline Baruch

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2014, 05:58:28 PM »
The english page is addressed to the rabbonim. Implying that they read it and signed based on it.
That was definitely the implication. The question is - is that what happened? Or, the Rabbanim wouldn't sign on his full blown agenda, only on the specifics of their letter.
When somebody thanks you for a favor you've done, respond "my pleasure", not "no problem".

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2014, 06:13:48 PM »
That was definitely the implication. The question is - is that what happened? Or, the Rabbanim wouldn't sign on his full blown agenda, only on the specifics of their letter.
I understood it to address the general Lakewood population as rabbinom
Purpose > Pleasure

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #58 on: July 04, 2014, 06:13:58 PM »
That was definitely the implication. The question is - is that what happened? Or, the Rabbanim wouldn't sign on his full blown agenda, only on the specifics of their letter.
Are you bothered by the one line on the english page that calls MS for individuals an "abusive practice"? Other than that line (and the fact that the rest is only passably coherently written) what's the problem?

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #59 on: July 04, 2014, 06:14:13 PM »
I understood it to address the general Lakewood population as rabbinom
+1 lol