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I feel compelled to speak about a "Kol Koreh" signed by a number of Rabbis making the rounds and being published together with an alleged "translation" or "explanation" of the hebrew side.
On the Hebrew side it speaks out against the credit card application farms and their methods as I wrote in point 2 here: http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/46584

However on the English side the author writes out against buying gift cards and every other method of manufactured spend to earn miles.

I figured it was worth investigating what exactly the Rabbis signed off on.  I called and asked Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky, the Rosh Yeshiva in Philadelphia, whether he agreed with the English side.  He said he never saw an English side and that it was terrible that it would imply that he was agreeing with anything that wasn't explicitly written on the Hebrew side.  And he said that it has to be corrected so that people don't get that impression.

He does not feel that "all methods of manufacturing spend for miles are abusive," and indeed if there are legal ways to do it, then people should go right ahead and earn the miles.

I also called Rav Dov Kahan, founder of Bais Din Maysharim in Lakewood.  He also did not agree that "all methods of manufactured spend are abusive" but felt that methods in which each party (the store and the credit card in the case of a gift card purchase) say that you can do so and it's not against any of their terms, would be permissible and that isn't what the Kol Koreh was targeting.

-Dan




Reply #194
Rav Kamenetsky just called me back.

He says aderaba, if people can find a way to purchase miles via stores who charge for gift cards and and they can get miles then good for them.  Nothing wrong with that kind of MS at all and he had no idea why the author would deceive him like that.

The problem he signed against was the companies opening cards for people and their methods, nothing else.


Reply #280
The only kind of MS that R' Kaminetzky said isn't "yashur" and that he was signing onto was for refundable items.

He wasn't told anything about any other kind of MS.





« Last edited by Dan on July 10, 2014, 09:49:35 PM »

Author Topic: Kol Koreh against MS  (Read 48882 times)

Offline TimT

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #90 on: July 06, 2014, 01:48:43 AM »
The editors always talk about hashkafa & right-&-wrong. Why do they accept these ads ?

Offline aygart

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #91 on: July 06, 2014, 01:50:43 AM »
BTW, the KK was printed 2 weeks ago in the Yated.
Shows readership....
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline thaber

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #92 on: July 06, 2014, 01:53:32 AM »
The editors always talk about hashkafa & right-&-wrong. Why do they accept these ads ?
Maybe DDF should launch a letter writing campaign to inbox@mishpacha.com

Offline EJB

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #93 on: July 06, 2014, 01:54:55 AM »

The editors always talk about hashkafa & right-&-wrong. Why do they accept these ads ?

$.

I'd guess they'll stop soon though. They may have already sent the issue to press when they heard about the KK, and it's very possible the editors are clueless as to what these companies do.

Offline Mimi K.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #94 on: July 06, 2014, 01:59:04 AM »
Highly doubt they are referring to anything but that subpoena.
Texas, check.
Email addresses, check
GC, check
Etc etc.
Basically the whole English page was ridiculous and unnecessary.
+1
"Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Free Stuff!" 8)

Offline mow

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #95 on: July 06, 2014, 02:38:51 AM »

The editors always talk about hashkafa & right-&-wrong. Why do they accept these ads ?
They want to stop but the guy just throws them more money so they cave

Offline mow

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #96 on: July 06, 2014, 02:40:51 AM »
Maybe If dan or somebody will disclose the trick of getting 4 or 5 business golds the trick will be dead and this guy will be outta business

Offline Deal Guy

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #97 on: July 06, 2014, 03:18:46 AM »
It's still not clear what business interest someone had in arranging the KK? I find it hard to believe that someone did it just because of possible chilul Hashem, especially when  so many websites out there discuss MS and refunables, not just in 1 zip code.

Offline Saver2000

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #98 on: July 06, 2014, 04:27:15 AM »
Maybe If dan or somebody will disclose the trick of getting 4 or 5 business golds the trick will be dead and this guy will be outta business
::)

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #99 on: July 06, 2014, 08:30:13 AM »
It's still not clear what business interest someone had in arranging the KK? I find it hard to believe that someone did it just because of possible chilul Hashem, especially when  so many websites out there discuss MS and refunables, not just in 1 zip code.
I assumed it was put together by someone that got burned by one of the "Credit Card Application" companies.

Offline aygart

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #100 on: July 06, 2014, 10:11:03 AM »
It's still not clear what business interest someone had in arranging the KK? I find it hard to believe that someone did it just because of possible chilul Hashem, especially when  so many websites out there discuss MS and refunables, not just in 1 zip code.
Just look at the email list on the subpoena. Doesn't have much to do with this direct as was pointed out earlier, but it is eye opening regarding prevalence.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Mimi K.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #101 on: July 06, 2014, 10:37:35 AM »
Just look at the email list on the subpoena. Doesn't have much to do with this direct as was pointed out earlier, but it is eye opening regarding prevalence.
The subpoena was for email addresses that bought multiple AA GCs.
Nobody else would buy them with their ridiculous T&Cs.
Nobody did spends on AA GCs!
We just did the Amex airline credits!
It has nothing to do with us doing anything wrong but rather to figure out how the hackers exploited Gmail to get into people's accounts.
At least that is what the lawyer told me then.
People just skim through half a forum thread and think they understand.
I am sure the guy didn't call the lawyer or research the suit anywhere else.
 ::) ::)
"Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Free Stuff!" 8)

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #102 on: July 06, 2014, 10:42:29 AM »
At the risk of sounding like a hypocrite it seems clear to me that some (all) of the Rabbanim who signed have an issue with not only fraud but many other aspects of the game we play.  I know there are certain shailos I asked and was told that it was mutar others I was told it was ossur and others I didn't ink about asking.
It seems to me that if one wants to rely on other Rabbanim that's fine but clearly the kk is talking about more than just fraud and they are expressing their opinion that it's ossur.

(When I was in High school I always wanted to convince my parents to try the oreck vacuum cleaner so we could return it and keep the free gifts.  Everyone I spoke to to had some type of safek that if we really didn't want it then it's wrong to do possibly genaiva and that was the end of it.  Recently I asked a choshuve rav and was surprised to hear that he holds it's mutar.  I still didn't get my free oreck iron though :))

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #103 on: July 06, 2014, 10:47:42 AM »
At the risk of sounding like a hypocrite it seems clear to me that some (all) of the Rabbanim who signed have an issue with not only fraud but many other aspects of the game we play.  I know there are certain shailos I asked and was told that it was mutar others I was told it was ossur and others I didn't ink about asking.
+1 sometimes the obvious needs to stated.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline aygart

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #104 on: July 06, 2014, 10:54:50 AM »
The subpoena was for email addresses that bought multiple AA GCs.
Nobody else would buy them with their ridiculous T&Cs.
Nobody did spends on AA GCs!
We just did the Amex airline credits!
It has nothing to do with us doing anything wrong but rather to figure out how the hackers exploited Gmail to get into people's accounts.
At least that is what the lawyer told me then.
People just skim through half a forum thread and think they understand.
I am sure the guy didn't call the lawyer or research the suit anywhere else.
 ::) ::)
It looks to me like you didn't even read the one post you were responding to:-\
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.