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I feel compelled to speak about a "Kol Koreh" signed by a number of Rabbis making the rounds and being published together with an alleged "translation" or "explanation" of the hebrew side.
On the Hebrew side it speaks out against the credit card application farms and their methods as I wrote in point 2 here: http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/46584

However on the English side the author writes out against buying gift cards and every other method of manufactured spend to earn miles.

I figured it was worth investigating what exactly the Rabbis signed off on.  I called and asked Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky, the Rosh Yeshiva in Philadelphia, whether he agreed with the English side.  He said he never saw an English side and that it was terrible that it would imply that he was agreeing with anything that wasn't explicitly written on the Hebrew side.  And he said that it has to be corrected so that people don't get that impression.

He does not feel that "all methods of manufacturing spend for miles are abusive," and indeed if there are legal ways to do it, then people should go right ahead and earn the miles.

I also called Rav Dov Kahan, founder of Bais Din Maysharim in Lakewood.  He also did not agree that "all methods of manufactured spend are abusive" but felt that methods in which each party (the store and the credit card in the case of a gift card purchase) say that you can do so and it's not against any of their terms, would be permissible and that isn't what the Kol Koreh was targeting.

-Dan




Reply #194
Rav Kamenetsky just called me back.

He says aderaba, if people can find a way to purchase miles via stores who charge for gift cards and and they can get miles then good for them.  Nothing wrong with that kind of MS at all and he had no idea why the author would deceive him like that.

The problem he signed against was the companies opening cards for people and their methods, nothing else.


Reply #280
The only kind of MS that R' Kaminetzky said isn't "yashur" and that he was signing onto was for refundable items.

He wasn't told anything about any other kind of MS.





« Last edited by Dan on July 10, 2014, 09:49:35 PM »

Author Topic: Kol Koreh against MS  (Read 93169 times)

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #180 on: July 08, 2014, 12:11:11 PM »
Either way it's an embarrassment that the English was added regardless of what it implied.  Embarrassment to the organizer and to the Rabonim who signed the hebrew.
+1
It also gives an excuse to ignore the real point.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Redbull3

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #181 on: July 08, 2014, 12:11:55 PM »
Frankly I have no idea what he feels about going to Staples and evolving their gift cards.
But I doubt it was ever explained to him properly and I intend to do so (if he so desires) and hear his opinion.

I applaud you doing this Dan and please KUP.

Offline lunatic

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #182 on: July 08, 2014, 12:14:09 PM »
I applaud you doing this Dan and please KUP.
+1

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #183 on: July 08, 2014, 12:14:26 PM »
+1. The English "Letter of explanation" starts off by saying "the enclosed letter signed by..." - meaning, the enclosed letter was signed off on. Not this "explanation." IMO I think it was made pretty clear what was being signed and what not.
A casual reader seeing "Letter of Explanation" assumes that either it's a translation of the hebrew (perhaps more wordy, but still true to the letter) or that it's something that was explained to the Rabonim verbally to which they agreed was a problem worth signing on.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #184 on: July 08, 2014, 12:16:25 PM »
A casual reader seeing "Letter of Explanation" assumes that either it's a translation of the hebrew (perhaps more wordy, but still true to the letter) or that it's something that was explained to the Rabonim verbally to which they agreed was a problem worth signing on.

I guess. And proof positive it's misleading is the fact that some in here were misled and we are even discussing it now lol.

Offline yaakov s

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #185 on: July 08, 2014, 12:17:04 PM »
What do those things have to do with the KK?
They singled out gift cards for whatever reason instead of being happy taking down the companies advertising $5K and doing refundables. Even going above the letter of the law it's tough to see the chillul hashem is with GCs. And it only weakened the KK IMHO.
Im not discussing the KK. My point was that by discussing and refuting the English version tacked onto the KK ,no one should fool themselves that the signatures endorse such practices . they may not sign against it but endorse??

Either way it's an embarrassment that the English was added regardless of what it implied.  Embarrassment to the organizer and to the Rabonim who signed the hebrew.
Beyond misleading , and did more harm then good to his "cause"

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #186 on: July 08, 2014, 12:28:36 PM »
If letter ther to read, the english side does not imply that the rabbonim saw or signed it. It's more like an open letter airing all the writer's grievances. He shares what he believes are not Kosher practices. Take it or leave it.
-100

I can't tell you many people came over to me this week and asked if I saw the letter that the rabbonim signed.

When I asked them what the Hebrew letter said,  they said they didn't read it. They "only read the English side".

I then explained them that the English letter had nothing to do with rabbonim.
It's some private persons rant.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #187 on: July 08, 2014, 12:31:40 PM »
they may not sign against it but endorse??
Who said anything about them endorsing it??? ??? ???

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #188 on: July 08, 2014, 12:32:29 PM »
Who said they endorsed it??? ??? ???
Read my original post

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #189 on: July 08, 2014, 12:34:13 PM »
getting the popcorn out for this one. finally a good JS thread.
I just found a new supply of forks!

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #190 on: July 08, 2014, 12:36:39 PM »
-100

I can't tell you many people came over to me this week and asked if I saw the letter that the rabbonim signed.

When I asked them what the Hebrew letter said,  they said they didn't read it. They "only read the English side".

I then explained them that the English letter had nothing to do with rabbonim.
It's some private persons rant.
+ 1000

Where I am that's what people are assuming , I'm sure tenfold in Lakewood where this publication is based , people assume that .

Offline avadah

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #191 on: July 08, 2014, 12:42:29 PM »
Of course people are assuming that. That's how it was portrayed. If he wanted people to know it's just a rant he could've written a letter in the yated or some other publication

Offline plainbachur

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #192 on: July 08, 2014, 12:55:56 PM »
Dan good luck with Rav Shumel Shlita V'hamven Y'vin

Interesting how this whole thing plays out!!!!!

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #193 on: July 08, 2014, 01:13:37 PM »
The english page is addressed to the rabbonim. Implying that they read it and signed based on it.
But also, the only substantial addition in the English page IMHO is the sentence quoted below. The rest is gibberish.

Are you bothered by the one line on the english page that calls MS for individuals an "abusive practice"? Other than that line (and the fact that the rest is only passably coherently written) what's the problem?

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #194 on: July 08, 2014, 01:17:53 PM »
Rav Kamenetsky just called me back.

He says aderaba, if people can find a way to purchase miles via stores who charge for gift cards and and they can get miles then good for them.  Nothing wrong with that kind of MS at all and he had no idea why the author would deceive him like that.

The problem he signed against was the companies opening cards for people and their methods, nothing else.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #195 on: July 08, 2014, 01:18:37 PM »
But also, the only substantial addition in the English page IMHO is the sentence quoted below.
Both of these points were never endorsed by the Rabonim:

"There are other methods of manufacturing spend some of which involve the purchase of gift cards to gain points."

"all methods of manufacturing spend are merely means of extracting promotions benefits for people for whom they were never intended and are abusive practices".
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #196 on: July 08, 2014, 01:20:11 PM »
Both of these points were never endorsed by the Rabonim:

"There are other methods of manufacturing spend some of which involve the purchase of gift cards to gain points."

"all methods of manufacturing spend are merely means of extracting promotions benefits for people for whom they were never intended and are abusive practices".
Agree, GC should not have been there.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #197 on: July 08, 2014, 01:20:50 PM »
I'm waiting for a correction or apology in this week's issue. Not holding my breath though.

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #198 on: July 08, 2014, 01:20:59 PM »
Rav Kamenetsky just called me back.

He says aderaba, if people can find a way to purchase miles via stores who charge for gift cards and and they can get miles then good for them.  Nothing wrong with that kind of MS at all and he had no idea why the author would deceive him like that.

The problem he signed against was the companies opening cards for people and their methods, nothing else.
Time for a MS post?!

Offline Dan

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Re: Kol Koreh against MS
« Reply #199 on: July 08, 2014, 01:22:14 PM »
I'm waiting for a correction or apology in this week's issue. Not holding my breath though.
He said he hopes to see a correction.
Anyone knows who runs the Shopper?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.