What's Your Feeling About Those Children and Women in Gaza?

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Absolutely. And on this forum I may be a small minority (I don't know if that's true or not) but amongst most (real) religious Jews in real life I most certainly am not. The Torah is clear-anyone who doubts or denies the authenticity of a single letter of it is deemed a heretic who does not merit the afterlife. Every single word is absolute indisputable God given fact.

I was not talking about this forum. Don't most religions if not all believe this about their religion.

[Aj3042]

I was not talking about this forum. Don't most religions if not all believe this about their religion.

Not all of them believe that their main sacred text is infallible and can't be changed or tempered with whatsoever, not due to societal pressure, modern morals, or anything else. Most modern religions have toned down the extremist elements contained within their texts and have "evolved". We believe that the Torah can never ever evolve and its "radical" elements are just as valid as its accepted ones. While there certainly are sects within other religions that believe the same of their religious texts, most do not. For example, many (most? Or maybe not?) modern Muslims don't follow the Koran when it instructs them to kill infidels. Christianity has likewise evolved to temper its extremism.

Now how many Jews honestly believe that about the Torah? Many (obviously not all) modern orthodox don't-they openly state that certain commandments have indeed evolved (easy to guess which). How many within the "mainstream" community, if you can call it that? I think not enough, and based on views I've seen here on this forum, perhaps that's an understatement.

But this is all a philosophical discussion and its not for now because I don't have patience.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Every Muslim I have met believes the same thing about the Koran as you do about the Torah. They claim since its original text not one single word has every been changed over the years. Something no other religion can claim. Don't shoot the messenger. 

[Aj3042]

Every Muslim I have met believes the same thing about the Koran as you do about the Torah. They claim since its original text not one single word has every been changed over the years. Something no other religion can claim. Don't shoot the messenger. 

I specifically said there are some sects of other religions that believe it-religious Jews are definitely not the only ones-and I had Muslims in mind because I know some are like that. The radicals are not pulling their Koran verses out of a hat-it really does say what they claim it does but the modern ones ignore it.

[aygart]

Please-facts, particularly those spelled out openly in the Torah, are not appreciated, especially when they conflict with Western liberal notions many here hold so dear.

That of course does not mean that it is to be interpreted the way you do. I have discussed these things with my rabbeim who are talmidei R Aharon, R Berel, and other litvishe Roshei Yeshiva and my views are based upon their mesorah. They most definitely differ from yours, but maybe more by having fewer sharp edges. They were very far from advocating the violence that you do. I challenge you to find a mesorah advocating the violence you espouse here. You are the one changing.

[Aj3042]

That of course does not mean that it is to be interpreted the way you do. I have discussed these things with my rabbeim who are talmidei R Aharon, R Berel, and other litvishe Roshei Yeshiva and my views are based upon their mesorah. They most definitely differ from yours, but maybe more by having fewer sharp edges. They were very far from advocating the violence that you do. I challenge you to find a mesorah advocating the violence you espouse here. You are the one changing.

And I challenge you in return to show me where I advocated violence (refusal to condemn and advocating are not the same thing).

Also, a post such as this which seeks to disprove a comment of mine needs to be specific. You claim you spoke to "your Rosh Yeshivos" about "these things" yet I'm completely in the dark as to specifically what you're talking about. Doesn't make for a very compelling case.
Furthermore, don't go telling me what "talmidim of Rav Ahron" said. I probably know, and have met and spoken with, more of those than you ever will, and I'm smart enough to realize that he, like many great people, left talmidim with varying ideas about very important topics. So don't make it out like there's some clear "kabalah" from him (or anyone else for that matter) because there isn't.
Lastly, I'd assume that a man of your claimed rank (as someone who regularly converses with such wise men) would know better than to "impose" his so called "mesorah" on someone who he doesn't know. There is no such thing as a real "mesorah" since the semicha was abolished 2,000 years ago-that's why there are 3 options for every 2 Jews, because there's no clear authority in most cases. So telling me about your "mesorah" from talmidim of Rav Ahron is like a religious Zionist telling his mesorah to a Satmar. There is no definitive mesorah that binds everyone in Klal Yisrael relating to anything but matters of strictly religious and apolitical nature.

Either way as I said I have no interest in pursuing this discussion as of now so take care. I'm going to let CM and you go at it like  in that Reagan vs. Obama discussion. 

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Either way as I said I have no interest in pursuing this discussion as of now so take care. I'm going to let CM and you go at it like  in that Reagan vs. Obama discussion. 

I will wait for you to get back. I trying to figure out how you say the Torah is fact they go on to say it is up for interpretation.

[aygart]

And I challenge you in return to show me where I advocated violence (refusal to condemn and advocating are not the same thing).

See here follow the link for the quotes

Yipeeeee!!!!!Let's go to the video tape.....
He wroteAbout which you wroteThat leaves us with a few choices.

• You have reading comprehension issues
• you write without thinking
• You have a difficult time expressing what you are really trying to say
• you are an am haaretz
• you are depraved
• all of the above

[doodle]

I will wait for you to get back. I am trying to figure out how you say the Torah is a fact
 and they go on to say it is up for interpretation.

Many many Jews have gone astray from the gentile cultures.
Do you remember your beautiful piece on the so called shabbos switch ?

[doodle]

I would nominate your piece on The Shabbos Switch as THE BEST POST ON JS EVER

[ChaimMoskowitz]

I would nominate your piece on The Shabbos Switch as THE BEST POST ON JS EVER

At the time IIRC it was in GD. 

ETA: I think you are right. I waited to it was moved to JS.

[aygart]

Also, a post such as this which seeks to disprove a comment of mine needs to be specific. You claim you spoke to "your Rosh Yeshivos" about "these things" yet I'm completely in the dark as to specifically what you're talking about. Doesn't make for a very compelling case.
Furthermore, don't go telling me what "talmidim of Rav Ahron" said. I probably know, and have met and spoken with, more of those than you ever will, and I'm smart enough to realize that he, like many great people, left talmidim with varying ideas about very important topics. So don't make it out like there's some clear "kabalah" from him (or anyone else for that matter) because there isn't.

I had a feeling that you would answer something along the lines of question which talmidim i am referring to, but for obvious reasons I will not name them and I cannot imagine that should you say who of the talmidim you have met or spoken with that you may have heard things upon which you are basing your extremism. I will say that after being in Lakewood/brisker yeshivos for over 25 years I have never heard anyone make any claim of them not being from the "mainstream talmidim" and they are universally considered to be migedolei talmidov. I am also not referring only to their own views but what they repeated to me from their rabbeim. Someone can be a talmid for many years and not hear his rebbi's opinion on many matters or not be basing his opinion on those of his rebbi. I am at least claiming that I am basing it on what I heard from my rabbeim who said over from theirs. You have not yet made such a claim. Maybe you are maybe you aren't, but I have not delegitimized the opinions of those who disagreed with me as you have here and in numerous other places.

[doodle]

I had a feeling that you would answer something along the lines of question which talmidim i am referring to, but for obvious reasons I will not name them and I cannot imagine that should you say who of the talmidim you have met or spoken with that you may have heard things upon which you are basing your extremism. I will say that after being in Lakewood/brisker yeshivos for over 25 years I have never heard anyone make any claim of them not being from the "mainstream talmidim" and they are universally considered to be migedolei talmidov. I am also not referring only to their own views but what they repeated to me from their rabbeim. Someone can be a talmid for many years and not hear his rebbi's opinion on many matters or not be basing his opinion on those of his rebbi. I am at least claiming that I am basing it on what I heard from my rabbeim who said over from theirs. You have not yet made such a claim. Maybe you are maybe you aren't, but I have not delegitimized the opinions of those who disagreed with me as you have here and in numerous other places.

thats a lot of words.
 Do you believe that The Entire Torah the way we received it is still one hundred percent accurate ?

[yochiek93]

thats a lot of words.
 Do you believe that The Entire Torah the way we received it is still one hundred percent accurate ?

What's that supposed to mean?

[aygart]

Lastly, I'd assume that a man of your claimed rank (as someone who regularly converses with such wise men) would know better than to "impose" his so called "mesorah" on someone who he doesn't know. There is no such thing as a real "mesorah" since the semicha was abolished 2,000 years ago-that's why there are 3 options for every 2 Jews, because there's no clear authority in most cases. So telling me about your "mesorah" from talmidim of Rav Ahron is like a religious Zionist telling his mesorah to a Satmar. There is no definitive mesorah that binds everyone in Klal Yisrael relating to anything but matters of strictly religious and apolitical nature.

SO I guess I shouldn't write like these about those whose opinions differ from mine




Quote from: Aj3042 on Today at 05:43:26 PM

Please-facts, particularly those spelled out openly in the Torah, are not appreciated, especially when they conflict with Western liberal notions many here hold so dear.

Absolutely. And on this forum I may be a small minority (I don't know if that's true or not) but amongst most (real) religious Jews in real life I most certainly am not.

Now how many Jews honestly believe that about the Torah?  How many within the "mainstream" community, if you can call it that? I think not enough, and based on views I've seen here on this forum, perhaps that's an understatement.

[aygart]

thats a lot of words.
 Do you believe that The Entire Torah the way we received it is still one hundred percent accurate ?

Was it difficult for you to understand? I can try to simplify it.
Yes I absolutely do, but I don't make up my own extremism and blame it on the torah.

[aygart]

He's referring to Tehillim 137:9.

It's a famous question which has been easily explained by Meforshim. The Jews suffered this exact fate of having their babies smashed aginst rocks R"L by the Babylonians, and the composer is stirring the Babylonians to repent by stating that the nation (not the Jews) that will attack Babylon and smash their babies against rocks will be deemed praiseworthy becaise of how low Babylon has fallen. (I.e. they have fallen so low that even their women and children will be suject to suffering in the hands of an enemy.)

I did not see this in the basic meforshim. Where is your source?

Please-facts, particularly those spelled out openly in the Torah, are not appreciated, especially when they conflict with Western liberal notions many here hold so dear.

Did you read what he wrote?

[zale]

I did not see this in the basic meforshim. Where is your source?Did you read what he wrote?

The part about the Babylonians doing this to Jewish babies and subsequently being paid back measure-for-measure by the nation of Madai is in Me'am Loez.

The part about it being a warning to Bavel I saw in sefer (before the days of the internet). I will have to research and follow up.

[doodle]

The part about the Babylonians doing this to Jewish babies and subsequently being paid back measure-for-measure by the nation of Madai is in Me'am Loez.

The part about it being a warning to Bavel I saw in sefer (before the days of the internet). I will have to research and follow up.

Before you "explain away" open verses in Tanach at least take the time to look in the Meforshim.
RADAK METUDAS ETC. they all explain it literally . 

[aygart]

Before you "explain away" open verses in Tanach at least take the time to look in the Meforshim.
RADAK METUDAS ETC. they all explain it literally .

that is most definitely the simple understanding and it sounds like it is in Meam Loez as well.