Shlomo Yehuda Rechnitz Article

[PlatinumGuy]

I think that is part of the underlying shidduch "crisis".

How?

[Sport]

Hishtadlus is a personal cheshbon, it can never be used on a scale larger than that. In terms of being "realistic," again, everybody has their own cheshbon, which is completely personal and can't be figured out nor judged (if ever) by someone else, let alone on a large scale. But again, the point is that there are no "leagues" when it comes to the less important qualities like looks and wealth. If people feel more entitled because they've been blessed with those qualities, that is their prerogative and takes some serious cheshbon as to whether or not they have the proper negiyus.

You're 100% correct that people must know where they are holding, but knowing where they are holding means in the important aspects in life. If they're specifically looking for wealth and looks to the exclusion of the much more important qualities in life,they are way off hashkafically. Those type of issues aren't causing girls not to get married, require their own forum to address and are rooted in much deeper issues.

However, to say that a bochur who isn't good looking and doesn't come from any particular wealth can't be looking for someone he's attracted to, and has the means to support his serious learning lifestyle isn't fair. Once he's made a real cheshbon hanefesh to decide what he's looking for, he can come to the conclusion that these are the qualities, among others, that his zivug will have.

Hishtadlus may be a personal cheshbon and not for others to judge, but the cheshbon in determining what is your Hishtadlus must consider reality.

[PutANameToIt]

I think the idea that people should be supported in learning is part of the problem.  In the alter heim, there were very few people who learned full time with no parnassah.  In the gemara every amora had a job. 

This model of a kollel society is not sustainable and I think that is part of the underlying shidduch "crisis".

Woah. Support for your comments? Every amorah worked? This argument is age-old, the taanaim argued about the proper way to go about learning and living, and people far greater than you and I have discussed this topic, our input is meaningless as to what is "right." Bringing proof from earlier generations where people who made a living at the same time as learning is ridiculous, unless you mean we should be like the Rambam's "Baal habas" who learned 9 hours a day. Nowadays it's hard enough to be properly holding in learning as a full time yeshiva bochur, let alone working.

The kollel lifestyle isn't meant for everyone. It requires a full-on commitment regardless of support, but when done properly, this is what am yisrael survives on through the generations.

When a family decides to support children in learning it's a beautiful thing as they are showing they appreciate the true importance of learning by supporting the children who are fully capable of using the support to its fullest and fulfilling their potentials as best as they can, in the best possible way-sitting in learning.

If it's not financially possible, then there's nothing to speak about. Everyone has to do the best with what they're given, but they also have to do their best to sacrifice for causes they believe in.

[PutANameToIt]

Hishtadlus may be a personal cheshbon and not for others to judge, but the cheshbon in determining what is your Hishtadlus must consider reality.

Of course. But you're the one creating this so-called "reality" that there are leagues when it comes to superficial qualities. In my opinion that's pretty ridiculous.

[yehuda S]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but back in the day, women died quite often in childbirth. The husband would then marry her sister or an older single girl who was willing to adopt the kids in exchange for security.

B"H it is extremely rare for a women to die in childbirth now-a-days. I bet this has an impact (maybe a huge impact).

from Wikipedia:  In 2013 U.S. the rate was 18.5 deaths per 100,000 live births.

However this takes the entire U.S. into account, it is probably waay lower in our community.

I read that in the 1600/1700s as much as 4% of women may have died this way.

Even taking the elevated stat from wikipedia, there may have been 3982 more single women getting married in 17th century Europe per 100,000 women.

[Sport]

Of course. But you're the one creating this so-called "reality" that there are leagues when it comes to superficial qualities. In my opinion that's pretty ridiculous.

I didn't create any realities or leagues. Wish I could though.

[PutANameToIt]

I didn't create any realities or leagues. Wish I could though.

The reality as it is now doesn't seem to be this way. There are families with money that are makpid on marrying wealthy, but usually this is only from a "practical" standpoint, and even these are willing to be mivater for the right shidduch. In terms of looks, 99% of girls aren't makpid to have a guy they consider as "attractive" as they are. So a guy who isn't good looking nor has money has quite a shot at dating girls "out of his league" and in reality is maasim bchol yom.

[Sport]

The reality as it is now doesn't seem to be this way.

Doesn't seem to be which way? I never professed to know the reality

[PutANameToIt]

Doesn't seem to be which way? I never professed to know the reality

Well, you kind of continued the argument of the previous poster who said the reality is that a guy can't get a girl who's out of his league. When I argued this point, you said that hishtadlus must take into account reality, which implied that his opinion is reality.

[PlatinumGuy]

The husband would then marry her sister or an older single girl who was willing to adopt the kids in exchange for security.

What a romantic marriage

[Ygold]

What a romantic marriage

Are you married?

[AnonymousUser]

I heard in the name of a Rosh Yeshiva. "before you say what your looking for, take a good long look in the mirror"

My mashgiach told us the same thing.

[aygart]

There is an argument to be made that those who stay in yeshiva out of peer pressure may actually be alleviating any issues. This is based upon the point which I and others made previously that it is easier for a girl to "want a learning boy" than it is for a boy to BE a learning boy. This is because the girl has not yet needed to actually do anything and, while she may be sincere, may not be willing or able to make the necessary sacrifices to be a long-term "kollel wife", whereas a boy has already achieved or not alevel of seriousness about his learning. As such, there will be girls who will be grouped as "kollel" while had they been boys they would not have. By having boys in the pool who are not really "kollel guys" you have potential pairs for these girls. Had they not been there these girl would either not get married or they would be in for a tense marriage with a husband who wants to sacrifice for learning and a wife who in actuality does not.

[PlatinumGuy]

There is an argument to be made that those who stay in yeshiva out of peer pressure may actually be alleviating any issues. This is based upon the point which I and others made previously that it is easier for a girl to "want a learning boy" than it is for a boy to BE a learning boy. This is because the girl has not yet needed to actually do anything and, while she may be sincere, may not be willing or able to make the necessary sacrifices to be a long-term "kollel wife", whereas a boy has already achieved or not alevel of seriousness about his learning. As such, there will be girls who will be grouped as "kollel" while had they been boys they would not have. By having boys in the pool who are not really "kollel guys" you have potential pairs for these girls. Had they not been there these girl would either not get married or they would be in for a tense marriage with a husband who wants to sacrifice for learning and a wife who in actuality does not.

You might be right (you're forgetting the fact that excessive boys in the yeshiva system and excessive girls wanting full time learners share the same causation and stopping one would also stop the other), but that's like saying that it's good to have equal an amount of males with diabetes since then the females with diabetes will have a suitable match.

The main flaw with both arguments, IMO, is that when attempting to solve a problem, you have to check not only if it will solve the problem, but also if it is the morally correct method to correct the problem. Otherwise,  the simplest solution would be to count the boys, count the girls, and kill the difference.

[Mordyk]

In my personal opinion, that like arguing Ch"v that it's good to have equal an amount of males in wheelchairs rc"l since then the females in wheelchairs will have a suitable match

The main flaw with both arguments, IMO, is that when attempting to solve a problem, you have to check not only if it will solve the problem, but also if it is the morally correct method to correct the problem. Otherwise, Hitler was right…

[Achas Veachas]

And now that Godwin's law has been invoked we can close the argument...

[aygart]

In my personal opinion, that like arguing Ch"v that it's good to have equal an amount of males in wheelchairs rc"l since then the females in wheelchairs will have a suitable match

The main flaw with both arguments, IMO, is that when attempting to solve a problem, you have to check not only if it will solve the problem, but also if it is the morally correct method to correct the problem. Otherwise, Hitler was right…

I can't say I understand the point you are trying to make and suspect that you misunderstood me.

[Mordyk]

And now that Godwin's law has been invoked we can close the argument...

+1
for anyone that is not familiar with godwin's law (like i was a minute ago)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

[avrumy22]

I emailed Reb Shlomo Yehuda this thread he said he will try to reply to this thread stay tuned...

Any update?!

[Abet rich]

I emailed Reb Shlomo Yehuda this thread he said he will try to reply to this thread stay tuned...

It doesnt pass for him to read and answer all of us simple folk