Missing Bochur - Aaron Sofer (BD"E)

[Baruch]

Hmm and people drove without seat belts as well.

Do you?

Do you not vaccinate your kids?

The point is that hiking without a cellphone is not a dangerous activity. It is safer to have one. If the R"Y holds that it's bad, then you shouldn't have one. In the world of a R' Kaplan bachur we are pre cell phones. So why can't he hike like everyone else pre cell phones?

[Baruch]

That's your prerogative. Just don't complain when people die.

No ones complaining. We say "Baruch Dayan Haemes". With full confidence that a boy will not get punished by G-D for not having on him a device that his R"Y holds is a sakana ruchni. Obviously you can't put yourself in sakana. But going hiking without a cell is not a sakana. It was done for 5k years b4 cell phones. I hiked and you hiked b4 cell phones. Obviously if there's nothing wrong with a cell, then you are mechuyav to do every hishtadlus. But according to Rav Kaplan there is something wrong, and therefore you should go hiking without one.

What's so hard to understand?

[menachem_m]

Obviously you can't put yourself in sakana. But going hiking without a cell is not a sakana. It was done for 5k years b4 cell phones.

So driving without a seatbelt is also not a sakana because we used to drive without them?
Not taking vaccinations is also not a sakana?

[Baruch]

So driving without a seatbelt is also not a sakana because we used to drive without them?
Not taking vaccinations is also not a sakana?

Are you saying that hiking without a cellphone is dangerous? Just that people did it anyways? Let's talk about the subject at hand. 

You're claim is ridiculous!

[aygart]

Going hiking in a hat and jacket without enough water is certainly a sakana

[menachem_m]

Are you saying that hiking without a cellphone is dangerous? Just that people did it anyways? Let's talk about the subject at hand.

Not at all. The halachic definition of sakana is for a Rov to decide, no you or me. So I'm not so sure why your claiming it is.

At the same time, in my humble opinion, I would say the a) abandoning someone on a hike is a sakono and/or b) hiking alone without a cell phone probably is.

[sky121]

Guys, I think the conversation is out of hand. I didn't realize this was a thread of people who personally knew him to mourn on the forums. If that's the case then yes, these topics should be moved to a separate thread.
Meanwhile NO ONE heaven forbid said ANYTHING about this boy being punished etc. Only you said such a thing.  Again, you are clearly taking everything in a bad way because of your intense emotions.

If the mods believe this thread should be separated so be it. If not, it may be a good idea to step out of the conversation were having since your close connection to the boy is causing you to take all the positive everyone wants to accomplish and become defensive. And that's a normal reaction for someone in your situation.

If someone is walking into a Shiva house and saying the things I am saying then that's clearly wrong and not the appropriate place or time.  A public forum is not a Shiva house. And again. If this was a place for those who knew him personally to mourn I apologize and the thread can be separated.


At the end of the day we are all sad and sorry a young boy lost his life and I imagine we all would like to do whatever we can to prevent such a thing in the future in any way possible.

[Crazy tools]

Keep in mind he did go on a hike with someone that had a cell phone. They got separated

[ChaimMoskowitz]

For those that know this area is it a dangerous area to go hiking? Steep drop-offs and such.

[yuneeq]

I used to walk through this forest all the time from Ein Karem to Har Nof.

The part I walked through wasn't steep or dangerous to walk through IIRC.
I've even done it in a suit on Rosh hashana.

[Baruch]

I used to walk through this forest all the time from bayit vegan to har nof.

The part I walked through wasn't steep or dangerous to walk through IIRC.
I've even done it in a suit on Rosh hashana.

A Suit?!? Are yo suicidal!?! 

 No cell phone?!
#sarcastic

[yuneeq]

A Suit?!? Are yo suicidal!?! 

In the hot Rosh Hashana heat? No cell phone?!
#sarcastic

I don't think your joke is appropriate.

#my2cents

[Baruch]

I don't think your joke is appropriate.

#my2cents

I think it brings out a point that what was done was normal activity.
Read the past few pages and understand the context.

[bubkiz]

I think it brings out a point that what was done was normal activity.
Read the past few pages and understand the context.

Coming from a dear personal friend of the family, that's a poor choice of words.

[churnbabychurn]

I used to walk through this forest all the time from Ein Karem to Har Nof.

The part I walked through wasn't steep or dangerous to walk through IIRC.
I've even done it in a suit on Rosh hashana.

Me too, but within the forest there are hills, rocks etc. ---- does happen, ppl fall on the sidewalk and die too..
Bottom line, when your number is called the circumstances don't matter at all. He definitely was not in any inherent mokom sakana so there shouldn't be anything left to discuss.

[avromie7]

Coming from a dear personal friend of the family, that's a poor choice of words.

what exactly is wrong with what he said ?

[Dan]

Bottom line, when your number is called the circumstances don't matter at all.

I'm not going to jump into this landmine, but would you say the same if it was someone who died without a seatbelt?
If it's all about a number then why say tefilas haderech?

[ChaimMoskowitz]

I'm not going to jump into this landmine, but would you say the same if it was someone who died without a seatbelt?

Take it to the extreme. What about someone who commits suicide?

[etech0]

Take it to the extreme. What about someone who commits suicide?

I heard from Rabbi Wallerstein (don't remember who he was quoting) that nowadays when someone CH"V commits suicide, we can consider it as if they died of pain.

[TimT]

I heard from Rabbi Wallerstein (don't remember who he was quoting) that nowadays when someone CH"V commits suicide, we can consider it as if they died of pain.

Why is today different than the olden days ? People went through the worst things in those days too. Probably worse