Pritzus Free - Tznius Getaways and Tips

[neveryou]

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/218787/jewish/The-Two-Way-Mouth.htm

[jye]

I’ve heard some of the Jersey shore beaches can be fine tznius wise in the evening. Never tried it myself. I do have a friend who tells me he waits to go jet skiing with the boys until it’s a rainy day just as it starts clearing and he doesn’t have any issues.

[yelped]

Thing is this is dependent on who and when. It's not necessarily clear cut.

[jj1000]

It's much more subjective. E.g some people could have a problem just going to the airport.

Agreed.

@jye Please let us know what your standards are.

Going to Miami is ok not on the beach, what about the women not tznius on the plane at the airport?

Last time I was at MIA there were multiple women in swimsuits at baggage claim. Does that rule out the destination in the future for you?

The more we know the more we can help find the right place for you.

[Yehuda57]

Was gonna page @TimT but I didn't want him to have to hurt his eyes looking where he shouldn't be:

 https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=45839.msg937439#msg937439

[yuneeq]

I feel like there’s a thread for this already. As mentioned above, it’s subjective. Many won’t mind going to a beach that’s not crowded and sitting off to the side. Others would not. Some would sit in a crowded beach but they won’t post that here.

Some feel they need an outlet and temporarily lower their standards. It’s also impossible to travel (or live) anywhere warm without lowering your standards and putting yourself up to the test.

[Dan]

My friend was flying on a sold out plane yesterday and a woman with an infant sat down in the middle seat next to him, missing 3/4 of her shirt.

Sure, you can buy 2 extra seats when you fly (do you do that OP?), but you're still going to see things you wouldn't see at home.

Then again walking the streets in any major city is also problematic for shmiras anayim. Add this to the pros/cons thread.

[imayid2]

Then again walking the streets in any major city is also problematic for shmiras anayim. Add this to the pros/cons thread.

There is a difference between living daily life, doing the things you need to do and going places you need to go, which can be argued is in the ליכא דרכא אחרינא categories. As a pose to taking these issues into account when choosing a vacation spot.
Obviously everyone will have their own standards of what’s too much and too unnecessary though.

[neveryou]

Belongs in a separate thread so here goes:

I think it’s pretty obvious that if an exotic location was touted as being shabbos friendly because there was a glatt mehadrin shabbos seudah at the Chabad house just an Uber ride away from the hotel it would be considered pretty bizarre.

It’s somewhat puzzling that there have got to be dozens of threads about the food kashrus standards
down to the smallest detail of which flavor Mehadrin hechsher WAJ uses. Just about every place under discussion is probably kosher on at least a deoraysah level. Yet there is almost no discussion of the kashrus shemiras einayim wise of various exotic destinations. If there was a hechsher for shemiras ainayim staying in a beachfront resort in the Bahamas would probably be certified by Rabbi Lisa Malik’s Temple Beth Ahm Hechsher at best.
בבא בתרא נז
ועוצם עיניו מראות ברע א"ר חייא בר אבא זה שאין מסתכל בנשים בשעה שעומדות על הכביסה היכי דמי אי דאיכא דרכא אחריתא רשע הוא אי דליכא דרכא אחריתא אנוס הוא לעולם דליכא דרכא אחריתא ואפ"ה מיבעי ליה למינס נפשיה

Perhaps a thread with some tips, locations, ideas etc. is in order. Going to Lancaster or the White mountains is obviously pretty high up there on the shemiras einayim list. As you go more exotic it becomes more difficult. There’s  Antarctica of course From experience staying in Miami away from the water can be very OK. Staying in or near South Beach is virtually impossible judging from the time I tried it.

I’m sure a heads up of what to expect in various destinations would be helpful to many.

How about frum people posting their pics of their vacation on social media, and they're posting not tznius pics of themselves and their wives?

Does that belong here or it's a separate thread

[Yehuda57]

My friend was flying on a sold out plane yesterday and a woman with an infant sat down in the middle seat next to him, missing 3/4 of her shirt.

Sure, you can buy 2 extra seats when you fly, but you're still going to see things you wouldn't see at home.

Then again walking the streets in any major city is also problematic for shmiras anayim. Add this to the pros/cons thread.

Looking at the thread I posted above, there seems to be a willful distortion of reality with these kinds of responses. Yes, there is plenty of skin showing on Bedford Ave in Williamsburg in the summer. I ride through Prospect Park on my way to work every day and pass loads of Chassidim and people in all states of undress. But to compare that to beachfront resorts and touristy beach towns is just silly.

Sure, there is a chance you can be seated on a plane next to someone dressed inappropriately (by your standards), but in many of these destinations, it's not a chance, but an inevitability.

There's plenty of room for these kinds of threads with practical suggestions that don't dismiss the issue entirely because "shmiras einayim problems are everywhere anyway".

[neveryou]

IIRC, I heard rabbi heller (rosh kollel in crown heights) say that NMB is ok to go to but not miami beach

[Yehuda57]

How about frum people posting their pics of their vacation on social media, and they're posting not tznius pics of themselves and their wives?

Does that belong here or it's a separate thread

OP seemed to be asking for tips for his own trips, I don't think he was looking to police others' behavior.

[yelped]

Ok, some practical suggestions.

A. Non Beach destinations are obviously less likely to have issues. Excluding cold weather places like Antarctica ( ), you can go to places like the Canadian Rockies, Switzerland, Austria, etc.

B. At beach destinations, you can usually try to find some quieter places and/or quieter times of the year where you can find some time where the beach or pool is empty.

C. Along the same vein, many hotel pools in beach areas are empty throughout the whole day because everyone is at the beach. They get fuller during the evening hours.

D. Smaller, boutique style hotels can be amazing for basically getting empty pools a lot of the time. The same goes for Airbnb's in fancier, smaller apartment buildings.

[jj1000]

OP seemed to be asking for tips for his own trips, I don't think he was looking to police others' behavior.

I disagree.

I think OP was speaking in a way that was intentionally judging others with a holier than thou attitude. It had nothing to do with Kashrush of Chabad houses and he brought it up in a way of saying anyone that goes to such places is going to a resort only a reform rabbi would allow.

And I think that leads to the responses that show everywhere is a problem, specifically because of how it was brought up by the OP in this case.

[Dan]

There is a difference between living daily life, doing the things you need to do and going places you need to go, which can be argued is in the ליכא דרכא אחרינא categories. As a pose to taking these issues into account when choosing a vacation spot.
Obviously everyone will have their own standards of what’s too much and too unnecessary though.

Looking at the thread I posted above, there seems to be a willful distortion of reality with these kinds of responses. Yes, there is plenty of skin showing on Bedford Ave in Williamsburg in the summer. I ride through Prospect Park on my way to work every day and pass loads of Chassidim and people in all states of undress. But to compare that to beachfront resorts and touristy beach towns is just silly.

Sure, there is a chance you can be seated on a plane next to someone dressed inappropriately (by your standards), but in many of these destinations, it's not a chance, but an inevitability.

There's plenty of room for these kinds of threads with practical suggestions that don't dismiss the issue entirely because "shmiras einayim problems are everywhere anyway".

Yes and no. I'd argue the daily life and exposure is far more consequential than the relative shtetl life in the suburbs and that we differ on what's inevitable, but I suppose that discussion doesn't belong here.

[aygart]

How about frum people posting their pics of their vacation on social media, and they're posting not tznius pics of themselves and their wives?

Does that belong here or it's a separate thread

Those people have a different standard. Tznius is obviously a bigger nisayon than Kashrus.

[aarony]

My friend was flying on a sold out plane yesterday and a woman with an infant sat down in the middle seat next to him, missing 3/4 of her shirt.

Sure, you can buy 2 extra seats when you fly (do you do that OP?), but you're still going to see things you wouldn't see at home.

Then again walking the streets in any major city is also problematic for shmiras anayim. Add this to the pros/cons thread.

For this reason I book a window seat whenever possible.  Much easier to avoid seeing things I don’t want to see even if they are right next to me.  I fly approximately twice a month.   

[Yehuda57]

I disagree.

I think OP was speaking in a way that was intentionally judging others with a holier than thou attitude. It had nothing to do with Kashrush of Chabad houses and he brought it up in a way of saying anyone that goes to such places is going to a resort only a reform rabbi would allow.

And I think that leads to the responses that show everywhere is a problem, specifically because of how it was brought up by the OP in this case.

True dat, but at least the last few lines are asking for tips. what I was (stupidly) reply to, OTOH, is just straight-up crapping on people.

[skyguy918]

... As a pose to...

r/BoneAppleTea

[skyguy918]

IIRC, I heard rabbi heller (rosh kollel in crown heights) say that NMB is ok to go to but not miami beach

That's because NMB isn't by the beach.