Author Topic: Obamacare Master thread  (Read 199469 times)

Offline joe1234

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 2071
  • Total likes: 535
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #680 on: May 09, 2021, 11:21:11 AM »
I pay $1275/ month for bronze fidelis care for the entire family. It has a 8k deductible I think, but it has a few doctor visit allowance. We don't go to doctors much so I consider it a catastrophic insurance plan, better than a healthshare.
Don’t know your family size and income... but for me NOTHING was affordable...

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17397
  • Total likes: 14336
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #681 on: May 09, 2021, 11:23:54 AM »
You predicted its imminent demise in 2016 and he confined his prediction to August 2021, neither of which materialized, although he has a better defense.

The bottom line is the US essentially has universal healthcare by redistribution, but where most of the developed world fund it by general taxes collected as a percentage of income and/or consumption, the US in effect makes everybody pay their per capita portion of the collective healthcare burden by making the insurance companies charge identical premiums regardless of the true cost.

While clearly not libertarian, it is better for the rich than other developed countries, at least conceptually. The middle class are paying a much larger portion of the overall bill than other expenses like education and defense.

There are essentially only two ways to change it. Either cancel the coverage mandates, taking away insurance from people who only have it because the government forces insurers to provide, which would lose Republicans blue collar support, or have the government fund the people who cost more via single payer or other schemes, which increases the role of government and ultimately shifts some of the burden from the middle class (average insurance buyer) to the rich (who pay larger tax amounts)


And yes I absolutely agree with @ExGingi that price transparency is a huge part of the problem that can be easily remedied.







I Presume that my intent was that the Rs would repeal it under Trump. True they were unable to do that, but they most definitely made it less sustainable as you yourself pointed out. Either way, nothing at all in that post election day post says that it is imminent.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #682 on: May 09, 2021, 11:26:10 AM »
I Presume that my intent was that the Rs would repeal it under Trump. True they were unable to do that, but they most definitely made it less sustainable as you yourself pointed out. Either way, nothing at all in that post election day post says that it is imminent.
Was it courts or republicans that cancelled the individual mandate?
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17397
  • Total likes: 14336
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #683 on: May 09, 2021, 11:26:54 AM »
Was it courts or republicans that cancelled the individual mandate?
Don't recall.
ETA: A quick check on Wikipedia says the Rs repealed the penalty.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2021, 11:31:32 AM by aygart »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #684 on: May 09, 2021, 11:29:48 AM »
I wonder how much of the past few years increase is simply because healthy people are leaving the insurance pool (because it’s more and more expensive and the realization if they ever need it they can just join at the time - the benefit of insurance is only if care is needed faster than insurance can be joined...)
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17397
  • Total likes: 14336
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #685 on: May 09, 2021, 11:33:29 AM »
I wonder how much of the past few years increase is simply because healthy people are leaving the insurance pool (because it’s more and more expensive and the realization if they ever need it they can just join at the time - the benefit of insurance is only if care is needed faster than insurance can be joined...)

I am sure a large part of it is exactly that, but note how the increase post penalty repeal pales in comparison to the prior years under Obamacare.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67599
  • Total likes: 16912
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #686 on: May 09, 2021, 11:35:41 AM »
2011: 2 adults
$3,000 family deductible =$3,422/year premium
$6,000 family deductible = $2,743/year premium
$8,000 family deductible = $2,442/year premium
$10,000 family deductible = $2,061/year premium

2012: 2 adults, 1 child
$3,000 family deductible =$5,414/year premium
$6,000 family deductible = $4,333/year premium
$8,000 family deductible = $3,852/year premium
$10,000 family deductible = $3,269/year premium

2013: 2 adults, 1 child
$3,000 family deductible =$6,723/year premium
$6,000 family deductible = $5,424/year premium
$8,000 family deductible = $4,840/year premium
$10,000 family deductible = $4,131/year premium

2014: 2 adults, 2 children
$3,000 family deductible =$9,856/year premium
$6,000 family deductible = $7,993/year premium
$8,000 family deductible = $7,156/year premium
$10,000 family deductible = $6,140/year premium

2015: 2 adults, 2 children
$3,000 family deductible =$11,969/year premium
$6,000 family deductible = $9.668/year premium
$8,000 family deductible = $8,633/year premium
$10,000 family deductible = $7,376/year premium

2016: 2 adults, 2 children
$3,000 family deductible =$13,378/year premium
$6,000 family deductible = $10,778/year premium
$8,000 family deductible = $9,610/year premium
$10,000 family deductible = $8,191/year premium

2017: 2 adults, 2 children
$3,000 family deductible =$14,164/year premium
$6,000 family deductible = $11,390/year premium
$8,000 family deductible = $10,143/year premium
$10,000 family deductible = $8,630/year premium

2018: 2 adults, 3 children
$3,000 family deductible =$19,385/year premium
$6,000 family deductible = $15,577/year premium
$8,000 family deductible = $13,865/year premium
$10,000 family deductible = $11,788/year premium


I had a $3,000 family deductible HSA until last year when the increase was so high that I shifted to a $10K.

I don't see how the lower deductible plans make any sense.

My 2019 renewal options for 2 adults, 3 children are:
$3,000 deductible =$22,356/year premium
$6,000 deductible = $17,952/year premium
$8,000 deductible = $15,972/year premium
$10,000 deductible = $13,572/year premium
2020: 2 adults, 3 children

$1,500/person deductible/$3,000 family deductible =$25,038/year premium (+12%)
$3,000/person deductible/$6,000 family deductible = $20,093/year premium (+11.9%)
$4,000/person deductible/$8,000 family deductible= $17,871‬/year premium (+11.9%)
$5,000/person deductible/$10,000 family deductible = $15,174/year premium  (+11.8%)


2021: 2 adults, 4 children

$1,500/person deductible/$3,000 family deductible =$27,210/year premium (+8.7%)
$3,000/person deductible/$6,000 family deductible = $21,829/year premium (+8.6%)
$4,000/person deductible/$8,000 family deductible= $19,411‬/year premium (+8.6%)
$5,000/person deductible/$10,000 family deductible = $16,476/year premium  (+8.6%)
Added past decade of pricing. To be fair, 4 kids are now included (plan stops increasing costs after 3 kids), but here's the insane percentage increases from 2021 vs 2011:

$1,500/person deductible/$3,000 family deductible =$27,210/year premium (+695%)
$3,000/person deductible/$6,000 family deductible = $21,829/year premium (+696%)
$4,000/person deductible/$8,000 family deductible= $19,411‬/year premium (+695%)
$5,000/person deductible/$10,000 family deductible = $16,476/year premium  (+699%)

How is this sustainable?!?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #687 on: May 09, 2021, 11:39:22 AM »
I am sure a large part of it is exactly that, but note how the increase post penalty repeal pales in comparison to the prior years under Obamacare.
Of course healthier people leaving the pools only affects other healthy people once pre-existing conditions can’t be charged more, so the whole phenomenon is an Obamacare result.

And as you pointed out, in order to force these healthy people to pay for sick people, you have to bar them from getting superior coverage that cannot be offered at any price to people with pre-existing conditions.

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #688 on: May 09, 2021, 11:40:52 AM »
How is this sustainable?!?
It isn’t, but there are only 2 ways out - take coverage away from people, or raise tax/debt to pay for those people. Obviously, both are very unpopular...
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #689 on: May 09, 2021, 11:44:47 AM »

2021: 2 adults, 4 children

$1,500/person deductible/$3,000 family deductible =$27,210/year premium (+8.7%)
$3,000/person deductible/$6,000 family deductible = $21,829/year premium (+8.6%)
$4,000/person deductible/$8,000 family deductible= $19,411‬/year premium (+8.6%)
$5,000/person deductible/$10,000 family deductible = $16,476/year premium  (+8.6%)

Added past decade of pricing. To be fair, 4 kids are now included (plan stops increasing costs after 3 kids), but here's the insane percentage increases from 2021 vs 2011:

$1,500/person deductible/$3,000 family deductible =$27,210/year premium (+695%)
$3,000/person deductible/$6,000 family deductible = $21,829/year premium (+696%)
$4,000/person deductible/$8,000 family deductible= $19,411‬/year premium (+695%)
$5,000/person deductible/$10,000 family deductible = $16,476/year premium  (+699%)

How is this sustainable?!?
Economically, it seems like you’d be much better off with a $50k+ deductible. I guess that’s made illegal by Obamacare because then you wouldn’t be paying in to the system enough to pay for sicker people?

Or it just market forces making it unattractive for insurers to offer higher deductibles?
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15620
  • Total likes: 7712
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #690 on: May 09, 2021, 11:54:34 AM »
You predicted its imminent demise in 2016 and he confined his prediction to August 2021, neither of which materialized, although he has a better defense.

I'm not in an argument and not trying to defend anything. I would call my post more of an anticipation than a prediction, a large part of that was that Trump and a Republican Congress would do away with it. They obviously didn't. And the other monkey wrench was COVID-19. I'm not sure about other states, but in NY it's open enrollment since April of 2020 until the end of 2021, with the ability to even backdate coverage sometimes. Paging @yos9694 - can you give us some insight on how all of this gets priced into health insurance premiums?

All of this (and the focus on other policy issues) gave "Obamacare" some life support. Regardless, we all seem to agree that it is unsustainable and did nothing to fix a broken system. I personally cannot complain, as I am a benficiary of the current system (in NY), but that doesn't make me a fan of the system or convince me that it is good.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #691 on: May 09, 2021, 12:03:07 PM »
I'm not in an argument and not trying to defend anything. I would call my post more of an anticipation than a prediction, a large part of that was that Trump and a Republican Congress would do away with it. They obviously didn't. And the other monkey wrench was COVID-19. I'm not sure about other states, but in NY it's open enrollment since April of 2020 until the end of 2021, with the ability to even backdate coverage sometimes. Paging @yos9694 - can you give us some insight on how all of this gets priced into health insurance premiums?

All of this (and the focus on other policy issues) gave "Obamacare" some life support. Regardless, we all seem to agree that it is unsustainable and did nothing to fix a broken system. I personally cannot complain, as I am a benficiary of the current system (in NY), but that doesn't make me a fan of the system or convince me that it is good.
People with serious pre existing conditions are paying less than they would without this. In some cases it’s the difference between life and death. Many situations aren’t covered by mandatory emergency room treatment.

We can argue if the price is worth it and if there are better ways to accomplish it, but it’s closing your eyes to pretend there is no benefit.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #692 on: May 09, 2021, 12:06:38 PM »
The political elite have little motivation to fix this. Above a certain income, increasing insurance rates are far preferable than a 5/10/15% tax increase to pay for the sicker people.

Even if they could somehow revoke the universal coverage aspect,  at this point it would only bring the single payer proposals closer.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline joe1234

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 2071
  • Total likes: 535
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #693 on: May 09, 2021, 12:07:16 PM »
I pay $1275/ month for bronze fidelis care for the entire family. It has a 8k deductible I think, but it has a few doctor visit allowance. We don't go to doctors much so I consider it a catastrophic insurance plan, better than a healthshare.
In event of a catastrophe I would want to go to the dr./Hospitol of my choice... not forced to go within my local state... going to the wrong place may be it’s own catastrophe...

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #694 on: May 09, 2021, 12:09:35 PM »
In event of a catastrophe I would want to go to the dr./Hospitol of my choice... not forced to go within my local state... going to the wrong place may be it’s own catastrophe...
I don’t think there any plans that cover all out of network care without unlimited copays. It’s impossible to offer that when anybody who needs x treatment can just join the plan before the treatment.

This is the extreme example of @aygart’s pointed that the price being paid is less access to high end healthcare
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17397
  • Total likes: 14336
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #695 on: May 09, 2021, 12:11:01 PM »


People with serious pre existing conditions are paying less than they would without this. In some cases it’s the difference between life and death. Many situations aren’t covered by mandatory emergency room treatment.

We can argue if the price is worth it and if there are better ways to accomplish it, but it’s closing your eyes to pretend there is no benefit.

Did anyone at all make the argument that there is no benefit to anyone?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17397
  • Total likes: 14336
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #696 on: May 09, 2021, 12:12:26 PM »
I don’t think there any plans that cover all out of network care without unlimited copays. It’s impossible to offer that when anybody who needs x treatment can just join the plan before the treatment.

This is the extreme example of @aygart’s pointed that the price being paid is less access to high end healthcare
There are max out of pocket plans for out of network
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #697 on: May 09, 2021, 12:13:10 PM »

Did anyone at all make the argument that there is no benefit to anyone?
the post it was replying to

. Regardless, we all seem to agree that it is unsustainable and did nothing to fix a broken system
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #698 on: May 09, 2021, 12:14:40 PM »
There are max out of pocket plans for out of network
I stand corrected then.

How is that possible? The OOP Max’s are low compared to expensive treatments and anybody who needs a treatment can join any plan.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2021, 12:19:44 PM by PlatinumGuy »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline joe1234

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 2071
  • Total likes: 535
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #699 on: May 09, 2021, 12:16:27 PM »
I don’t think there any plans that cover all out of network care without unlimited copays. It’s impossible to offer that when anybody who needs x treatment can just join the plan before the treatment.

This is the extreme example of @aygart’s pointed that the price being paid is less access to high end healthcare
Was this the case pre Obamacare? I don’t believe in a free market this would be an issue... correct me if I’m wrong...
At this point only HealthShares cover anywhere... they’re all terrible and unreliable... I’m hoping United Refuah is better... does anyone have experience with them?