Author Topic: Obamacare Master thread  (Read 87724 times)

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #80 on: August 18, 2016, 11:01:34 AM »
Spent a big paragraph telling me talking point no. 99 that the bill is too big to read. Keep stuffing in the memos of the right wing. That's what you meant when you used the word logic over 10 times ? Sorry but I just cannot respond.
Wow. I actually gave you the benefit of the doubt, thinking that you honestly mean (and think what you wrote). You've just exposed yourself as a political hack.

I have no idea what the "talking points" are nor have I read any "memos of the right wing".

I have no political agenda here whatsoever. I simply understand how insurance and business work, coupled with a little understanding of human behavior (which ties into the understanding of the insurance) and saw from the outset that there was absolutely no way this could work in the real world. (And if I recall correctly there was a news story a while ago about some professor that admitted that lying to the American public about the realities of the law was necessary in order to get it passed - but let's not go there, as that is political).

And since you say you have experience (not clear from your response as to whether it is in Risk Management, Actuarial Science or the Healthcare or Insurance industry), why don't you share the specifics of your experience with us.

As I said before, it's simple arithmetic, but you seem to even have a problem telling whether it is day or night ;) so the only point in responding seems to be for the purpose of others, as you have your opinion (notice I didn't say mind) set.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline sguitarist18

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #81 on: August 18, 2016, 11:11:21 AM »

I rather you say it more clearly, no lawsuits for malpractice at all.
come on how do you differenciate outrageous from others ? won't work.
(this reminds me from the old republican "taxes are to high" argument. What they really want is pay Zero. say it so0

1) Most people will agree that there needs to be the option of lawsuits for malpractice. However, the system in america is ridiculous, where people can bring frivolous lawsuits of all kinds, with no risk to themselves. In many other countries, if you bring a lawsuit without a strong basis, you automatically have to pay the other sides legal fees.

2) While it would be nice to not have to pay taxes at all, I don't think anyone genuinely believes that. We understand that taxes are needed to help run things. People protest taxes that are higher than they should be, or having to shoulder an unfair burden (i.e., pushing for a voucher system for schools, which would cost the city less, and relieve the tuition burden on parents who send their kids to private schools).

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #82 on: August 18, 2016, 01:08:33 PM »
Wow. I actually gave you the benefit of the doubt, thinking that you honestly mean (and think what you wrote). You've just exposed yourself as a political hack.

I have no idea what the "talking points" are nor have I read any "memos of the right wing".

I have no political agenda here whatsoever. I simply understand how insurance and business work, coupled with a little understanding of human behavior (which ties into the understanding of the insurance) and saw from the outset that there was absolutely no way this could work in the real world. (And if I recall correctly there was a news story a while ago about some professor that admitted that lying to the American public about the realities of the law was necessary in order to get it passed - but let's not go there, as that is political).

And since you say you have experience (not clear from your response as to whether it is in Risk Management, Actuarial Science or the Healthcare or Insurance industry), why don't you share the specifics of your experience with us.

As I said before, it's simple arithmetic, but you seem to even have a problem telling whether it is day or night ;) so the only point in responding seems to be for the purpose of others, as you have your opinion (notice I didn't say mind) set.

Don't feed the troll

Offline Dan

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #83 on: August 18, 2016, 01:11:20 PM »
My increases were very minor before Obamacare.
Now it's massive every single year.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #84 on: August 18, 2016, 01:46:24 PM »
My increases were very minor before Obamacare.
Now it's massive every single year.
The playbook was written in advance:

Mathematically speaking there is no way this could have worked without high premiums.

I suspect that premiums might have been artificially suppressed in the first couple of years by plugging in flawed assumptions (this is food for conspiracy theorists) which is why even established carriers are experiencing high premium increases and heavy losses. After all, the big carriers have experience and shouldn't be mispricing that badly.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Dan

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #85 on: August 18, 2016, 01:53:04 PM »
I don't have Obamacare, but its regulations have significantly raised the annual increases on my plan.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #86 on: August 18, 2016, 02:35:42 PM »
I don't have Obamacare, but its regulations have significantly raised the annual increases on my plan.
I guess you mean to say that you didn't purchase your plan on the exchange.

One of the big lies of Obamacare was "if you like your plan you can keep it". Other than large corporations and unions (the cronies of the Ds) and Medicaid recipients, no one that I know was able to keep their plans.  The other big lie was "if you like your Doctor, you can stay with him/her", in order to adjust costs, insurers are reshaping their networks, and many people find that their old carrier is no longer accepted at their doctor.

ALL health insurance in the US is currently subject to Obamacare (officially named the un"Affordable Care Act") mandates!

I don't know much about Health Insurance outside of NY, but know a lot about it in NY. Prior to Obamacare there was practically no individual health insurance in NY. You either had employer based coverage or you had government sponsored coverage (Medicaid, Child HealthPlus, Family HealthPlus, or Healthy NY).

Once Obamacare was enacted, individual plans became available in NY (on- and off-exchange, though it is my understanding that the off-exchange plans are carbon copies of the on-exchange plans, and I don't know of anyone who bought individual coverage off-exchange).

A few things went out the window in NY once Obamacare was enacted: Family HealthPlus, Healthy NY for individuals (still available for qualifying businesses, gives Gold level coverage for the equivalent of Bronze rates), and the ability to set up group coverage where the employer group consisted solely of Husband and Wife (which was how many entrepreneurs got coverage). Additionally Medical FSA contributions are now limited to $2,500 (instead of $5,000) and OTC drugs need a prescription order to qualify as an expense for FSA or HSA.

So bottom line - everyone is affected regardless of which policy you have!
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Matovu

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #87 on: August 18, 2016, 08:25:02 PM »
Don't feed the troll
Why the need to say this ?
It's a pretty civil conversation.

If anything, that's a hurtful comment and it's out of left field, I would consider that to be trolling.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #88 on: August 18, 2016, 09:43:14 PM »
Why the need to say this ?
It's a pretty civil conversation.

If anything, that's a hurtful comment and it's out of left field, I would consider that to be trolling.
Your responses throughout this thread could be used in a textbook about left wing argument methods.

Maybe someone with more time and expertise than I posses could gather each and every one of your posts in this thread, and show how you consistently ignore facts, avoid substantive arguments but present plenty of emotional arguments which are founded on wishful thinking at best, occasionally attack the form of the argument using exaggerations ("you used the word logic over 10 times"), quote assumptions as facts, etc etc.

Yet when accused of trolling you take it personally, rather than prove it wrong by changing course and reverting to fact based and logic tested arguments.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline elit

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #89 on: August 18, 2016, 10:03:24 PM »
Your responses throughout this thread could be used in a textbook about left wing argument methods.

Maybe someone with more time and expertise than I posses could gather each and every one of your posts in this thread, and show how you consistently ignore facts, avoid substantive arguments but present plenty of emotional arguments which are founded on wishful thinking at best, occasionally attack the form of the argument using exaggerations ("you used the word logic over 10 times"), quote assumptions as facts, etc etc.

Yet when accused of trolling you take it personally, rather than prove it wrong by changing course and reverting to fact based and logic tested arguments.
I am in the same side of this argument as you but whenever one resorts to you are drinking the Kool aid (see election thread) or you're using the text book arguments of the (insert left or right here)  or you really buy everything (insert "main stream media" or "talk radio" here) says.  It just brings the argument down  to a child's level. if you have a response to the person's point respond if you don't think it deserves a response don't respond.
/rant

Offline Matovu

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #90 on: August 18, 2016, 10:19:00 PM »
I am not balanced here. Never have I hid my liberal side of view. I wear my progressive politics as a badge of honor. I am amused that only "you" are able to present facts, and when I respond in kinf, it's textbook liberal ideology, and therfore must be a false argument by default.

I was offended by the troll comment because I am having a real civil enjoyable conversation. Look back at all my comments and match them with others in this thread you won't see any name calling or any degrading unrespectful comment. Or questioning any experience, job and e.t.c. On the contrary...

Chill my friends chill.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #91 on: August 18, 2016, 10:30:11 PM »
I am not balanced here. Never have I hid my liberal side of view. I wear my progressive politics as a badge of honor. I am amused that only "you" are able to present facts, and when I respond in kinf, it's textbook liberal ideology, and therfore must be a false argument by default.

I was offended by the troll comment because I am having a real civil enjoyable conversation. Look back at all my comments and match them with others in this thread you won't see any name calling or any degrading unrespectful comment. Or questioning any experience, job and e.t.c. On the contrary...

Chill my friends chill.
Enjoyable it truly is, but please do give us some substance and facts. I've looked hard and couldn't find any in your posts on this thread.

Please do respond to the followup questions and inquiries about your statements.

Let's make this a truly intellectual discussion, if we can keep it on an intellectual level you might even end up as a proud dittohead  ;D
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #92 on: August 18, 2016, 10:49:51 PM »
Why the need to say this ?
It's a pretty civil conversation.

If anything, that's a hurtful comment and it's out of left field, I would consider that to be trolling.

Pretty simply because you ignored any facts stated and have made up many "facts" that were proven to be false. When you were confronted with it, you go on to ignore the facts and repeat the same things over again. I disagree with ExGingi because I think a knowledgeable liberal would be able to retort with some rational counterpoints, if you were drinking the kool aid you'd be able to do the same.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #93 on: August 18, 2016, 11:11:12 PM »
I disagree with ExGingi because I think a knowledgeable liberal would be able to retort with some rational counterpoints, if you were drinking the kool aid you'd be able to do the same.
Not sure what it is that you are disagreeing about.

I can't wait to hear some rational counterpoints. I am one of the most open minded people I know. I have strong opinions, but am always open to hear others and am willing to change my mind and/or admit errors if convinced otherwise.

However, there seems to be a very different M.O. employed by "liberals" and "progressives" which is that a different set of standards is applied to the opposing viewpoint than to theirs.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #94 on: August 21, 2016, 08:47:51 AM »
My increases were very minor before Obamacare.
Now it's massive every single year.
Here's an explanation for your increases:

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2016/08/21/obamacares-inherent-weakness-and-four-options-for-health-care-moving-forward/

I actually think there are better options than the 4 options offered, but Matovu is likely to dismiss everything as right wing propaganda (and will point to the article as proof positive that it's the Republicans fault that none of the 4 fixes offered could pass).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #95 on: August 21, 2016, 09:28:29 AM »
The democrats themselves ensured that there would be perpetual Republican opposition to the law. Had they not shot down any possibility of Republican participation in the law the opposition would be blunted.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #96 on: August 21, 2016, 01:12:24 PM »
The democrats themselves ensured that there would be perpetual Republican opposition to the law. Had they not shot down any possibility of Republican participation in the law the opposition would be blunted.
You are barking up the wrong tree! You are allowing this to become political, when there are actually fundamental flaws in the law, and in the process of getting it passed, which have nothing to do with politics (or for that matter even with conservative or socialist leanings).

The law is founded on lies, starting with its name "Affordable Care Act" where it does nothing to address fundamental affordability. Yes, it does provide subsidies, but does absolutely nothing to control the inherent problems causing the rising costs.

For example I suggest reading http://www.managedcaremag.com/archives/2011/8/health-plans-seek-leverage-when-physicians-submit-extremely-high-bills

I have some suggestions of how to deal with that and other problems, but would like to hear others (especially Matovu) chime in with their views and opinions first.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #97 on: August 21, 2016, 01:18:58 PM »
You are barking up the wrong tree! You are allowing this to become political, when there are actually fundamental flaws in the law, and in the process of getting it passed, which have nothing to do with politics (or for that matter even with conservative or socialist leanings).

The law is founded on lies, starting with its name "Affordable Care Act" where it does nothing to address fundamental affordability. Yes, it does provide subsidies, but does absolutely nothing to control the inherent problems causing the rising costs.

For example I suggest reading http://www.managedcaremag.com/archives/2011/8/health-plans-seek-leverage-when-physicians-submit-extremely-high-bills

I have some suggestions of how to deal with that and other problems, but would like to hear others (especially Matovu) chime in with their views and opinions first.
Your ignoring the political issues is no better than his ignoring the inherent flaws. Both exist.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #98 on: August 21, 2016, 02:17:12 PM »
Your ignoring the political issues is no better than his ignoring the inherent flaws. Both exist.
Obviously both exist, but focusing on the political issues will never lead to a workable solution.

Unlike some who will always take the "party line", while I do have strong political leanings, I am by no means a political hack. I apply critical thinking to everything that crosses my path. I have no affinity for any political party.

We had a malfunctioning system before Obamacare, and rather than fixing the root causes of the malfunction, Obamacare created even more problems, increased the bureaucracy and overhead at ALL levels.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 02:25:16 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

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I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan