Author Topic: NFL Master Thread  (Read 118587 times)

Offline tam111

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Re: NFL Master Thread
« Reply #1080 on: January 13, 2019, 07:48:25 PM »
All four home teams won this weekend (and three of the four covered the spread). Next weekend will be fun with four high scoring offenses left. 

Offline Moshe26

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Re: NFL Master Thread
« Reply #1081 on: January 14, 2019, 01:23:25 PM »
All four home teams won this weekend (and three of the four covered the spread). Next weekend will be fun with four high scoring offenses left.
Idk if you can consider the saints as high scoring offense anymore. But def gonna be a fun Sunday

Offline dealfinder11

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Re: NFL Master Thread
« Reply #1082 on: January 14, 2019, 09:26:06 PM »
Any non Giants fans here that think Eli Manning should be a Hall of famer?

Offline S209

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Re: NFL Master Thread
« Reply #1083 on: January 14, 2019, 10:55:25 PM »
Any non Giants fans that think Eli Manning should ever have been an NFL starter?
FTFY
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Offline dealfinder11

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Re: NFL Master Thread
« Reply #1084 on: January 14, 2019, 11:38:31 PM »
FTFY

In his defense, he has been a really strong 2 minute offense QB. Definitely a top 30 QB for me, probably top 15. So league average. However he is a career .500 QB (again league average). And his TD-INT ratio is a joke. Obviously never came close to getting MVP votes.

Offline S209

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Re: NFL Master Thread
« Reply #1085 on: January 14, 2019, 11:50:00 PM »
In his defense, he has been a really strong 2 minute offense QB. Definitely a top 30 QB for me, probably top 15. So league average. However he is a career .500 QB (again league average). And his TD-INT ratio is a joke. Obviously never came close to getting MVP votes.
You can say that again. Iím amazed to this day when Giants fans try to put him in the same breath as Peyton. ROFLMFAO.
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: NFL Master Thread
« Reply #1086 on: January 15, 2019, 01:54:30 AM »
Any non Giants fans here that think Eli Manning should be a Hall of famer?
FTFY
There are only 20 QB's that have even made it to the superbowl more than once. Of those, 12 are already in the HOF, 2 more are locks, with another 1 or 2 likely to make it eventually. Out of the full 20, only 12 have won more than 1 - all of which are, or will be, in the HOF. The only exception is Jim Plunkett, and Eli has a slightly better case than him anyway. I'm not trying to make the case that Eli should be in the HOF - just that you probably shouldn't be surprised if he ends up there.

Offline dealfinder11

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Re: NFL Master Thread
« Reply #1087 on: January 15, 2019, 08:40:47 AM »
There are only 20 QB's that have even made it to the superbowl more than once. Of those, 12 are already in the HOF, 2 more are locks, with another 1 or 2 likely to make it eventually. Out of the full 20, only 12 have won more than 1 - all of which are, or will be, in the HOF. The only exception is Jim Plunkett, and Eli has a slightly better case than him anyway. I'm not trying to make the case that Eli should be in the HOF - just that you probably shouldn't be surprised if he ends up there.

If winning 2 superbowls as a qb is all that qualifies you for HOF, would Nick Foles had gotten in, had he won one this year?
Of those 12, how many had anything near the regular season stats that Eli has? again career  .500 W/L. And thats with some absolutely dominate defenses. 

Offline S209

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Re: NFL Master Thread
« Reply #1088 on: January 15, 2019, 01:26:35 PM »
If winning 2 superbowls as a qb is all that qualifies you for HOF, would Nick Foles had gotten in, had he won one this year?
Of those 12, how many had anything near the regular season stats that Eli has? again career  .500 W/L. And thats with some absolutely dominate defenses.
Good points. Although I think Nick Foles is seriously underrated and is going to get a nice job next year. Never really got why he didn't start for anyone after the regular season stats he put together with Philly the first time around. Giants, anyone?
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: NFL Master Thread
« Reply #1089 on: January 15, 2019, 04:06:29 PM »
If winning 2 superbowls as a qb is all that qualifies you for HOF, would Nick Foles had gotten in, had he won one this year?
Of those 12, how many had anything near the regular season stats that Eli has? again career  .500 W/L. And thats with some absolutely dominate defenses.
Nick Foles has played in a total of 52 games - so no, if he had won this year too and retired, he would not have gotten in. Contrast that with Eli's 15 seasons and 252 games as an average to above average starting QB. There's plenty of players in every sport's HOF that have gotten in on championships and/or longevity, despite never being elite players.

This is kind of a silly discussion. I don't believe Eli deserves to be in the HOF because he was just never that good of a QB - probably never even cracked top 5 QB in a given season. But to pretend that therefore he'll never get in is to ignore the reality of who gets in. Rings and longevity are a potent combo, especially for a QB.

Offline dealfinder11

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Re: NFL Master Thread
« Reply #1090 on: January 15, 2019, 07:28:37 PM »
Nick Foles has played in a total of 52 games - so no, if he had won this year too and retired, he would not have gotten in. Contrast that with Eli's 15 seasons and 252 games as an average to above average starting QB. There's plenty of players in every sport's HOF that have gotten in on championships and/or longevity, despite never being elite players.

This is kind of a silly discussion. I don't believe Eli deserves to be in the HOF because he was just never that good of a QB - probably never even cracked top 5 QB in a given season. But to pretend that therefore he'll never get in is to ignore the reality of who gets in. Rings and longevity are a potent combo, especially for a QB.

Ok if you don't like the Nick Foles analogy, how about if Joe Flacco makes another run at one?
Whats above average about a 500 career with a TD-INT ratio of 1.5/1??
Can't ignore either that he had dominate defenses for large part of his career (especially early on)

Also, just curious, but are you a Giants fan?

Offline skyguy918

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Re: NFL Master Thread
« Reply #1091 on: January 15, 2019, 08:40:56 PM »
Ok if you don't like the Nick Foles analogy, how about if Joe Flacco makes another run at one?
Yeah, Flacco would have a strong chance in that scenario. He still doesn't match Eli's longevity, but definitely the same kind of thing - where he's pretty average over the course of his career. I will say that I think Eli's legacy gets a boost from the fact that his 2 wins were over Brady and the Pats. Flacco's existing win (over the 49'ers with Kap) doesn't come anywhere near that kind of pedigree. Same with where they played. Winning the NY definitely gets you a different image than most other places - certainly BAL. Joe Namath - he of the 1.2/1.6 TD/INT ratio (Eli's is 1.6/1.0 btw), <200yd/gm career average and only 50% completion rate - is in the HOF on the strength of his one NY SB win.

Whats above average about a 500 career with a TD-INT ratio of 1.5/1??
I don't mean evaluating his career as whole (though a case could be made there as well). I mean that he definitely had individual seasons where you'd put him in the upper tier of the league's QB's (his 4 Pro Bowls are a decent reminder of that), which should certainly qualify for above average.

Also, just curious, but are you a Giants fan?
No. You're taking a very weird angle on this. I'm not a Giants fan, and I already told you I don't think Eli deserves to be in the HOF. But that's a different question than will he get into the HOF. I don't understand why you can't grasp this. Players with his kind of resume get in, even if they shouldn't.

Here's a decently written version of basically the same argument: http://www.realclearlife.com/sports/eli-mannings-case-for-the-hall-of-fame-is-a-complicated-one/

Offline Amusch

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Re: NFL Master Thread
« Reply #1092 on: January 15, 2019, 09:27:07 PM »
Any non Giants fans here that think Eli Manning should be a Hall of famer?

FTFY, at least for this Giants fan and his friends.

Also, re:
If winning 2 superbowls as a qb is all that qualifies you for HOF, would Nick Foles had gotten in, had he won one this year?
Of those 12, how many had anything near the regular season stats that Eli has? again career  .500 W/L. And thats with some absolutely dominate defenses. 

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Offline dealfinder11

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Re: NFL Master Thread
« Reply #1093 on: January 15, 2019, 10:14:47 PM »
Quote
Yeah, Flacco would have a strong chance in that scenario. He still doesn't match Eli's longevity, but definitely the same kind of thing - where he's pretty average over the course of his career. I will say that I think Eli's legacy gets a boost from the fact that his 2 wins were over Brady and the Pats. Flacco's existing win (over the 49'ers with Kap) doesn't come anywhere near that kind of pedigree. Same with where they played. Winning the NY definitely gets you a different image than most other places - certainly BAL. Joe Namath - he of the 1.2/1.6 TD/INT ratio (Eli's is 1.6/1.0 btw), <200yd/gm career average and only 50% completion rate - is in the HOF on the strength of his one NY SB win.

Are we just going to ignore eras in terms of offensive production?
 I understand the NY point and it's valid.
However if he goes up for HOF at same time as Rivers/Ben/Breeze thats going to lose some of its juice.

Quote
I don't mean evaluating his career as whole (though a case could be made there as well). I mean that he definitely had individual seasons where you'd put him in the upper tier of the league's QB's (his 4 Pro Bowls are a decent reminder of that), which should certainly qualify for above average.

We are talking the Hall Of Fame here

Quote
You're taking a very weird angle on this. I'm not a Giants fan, and I already told you I don't think Eli deserves to be in the HOF.

Never met a non Giant fan that thought there was a good argument to put Eli in the HOF

Offline dealfinder11

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Re: NFL Master Thread
« Reply #1094 on: January 15, 2019, 10:15:53 PM »

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: NFL Master Thread
« Reply #1095 on: January 15, 2019, 10:44:22 PM »
I don't think the argument is winning 2 SBs, it's beating the Pats twice that makes him a deserved HOF lock
Quote from: ExGingi
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: NFL Master Thread
« Reply #1096 on: January 15, 2019, 11:45:28 PM »
Are we just going to ignore eras in terms of offensive production?
 I understand the NY point and it's valid.
However if he goes up for HOF at same time as Rivers/Ben/Breeze thats going to lose some of its juice.

We are talking the Hall Of Fame here

Never met a non Giant fan that thought there was a good argument to put Eli in the HOF
You're being obtuse. We've already clearly agreed that we think he doesn't deserve to be in the HOF. The question I pivoted to is will he get in. So let me ask you, do you think he will get in?

Offline Moshe26

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Re: NFL Master Thread
« Reply #1097 on: January 16, 2019, 09:18:35 AM »
You're being obtuse. We've already clearly agreed that we think he doesn't deserve to be in the HOF. The question I pivoted to is will he get in. So let me ask you, do you think he will get in?
does get deserve to make it to the HOF? No
Will he make the HOF? Yes. Bc of mainly because of 3 things 1- he has 2 rings and they came against the GOAT. 2- his last name is Manning. 3- he played for the Giants. And yes I'm a giants fan

Offline S209

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Re: NFL Master Thread
« Reply #1098 on: January 16, 2019, 12:23:21 PM »
does get deserve to make it to the HOF? No
Will he make the HOF? Yes. Bc of mainly because of 3 things 1- he has 2 rings and they came against the GOAT. 2- his last name is Manning. 3- he played for the Giants. And yes I'm a giants fan
I donít think the name Manning is a factor, but the other two may very well be. Also, god for you for not thinking he deserves it, but did you feel the same way 2-3 years ago? I think Giants fans are just upset at him now..
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Offline Amusch

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Re: NFL Master Thread
« Reply #1099 on: January 16, 2019, 01:59:13 PM »
I donít think the name Manning is a factor, but the other two may very well be. Also, god for you for not thinking he deserves it, but did you feel the same way 2-3 years ago? I think Giants fans are just upset at him now..

I've always loved him for his calm demeanor, his consistently above average performance, and his nearly unprecedented durability. No doubt the Giants will miss all 3 in the near future. But never did I think he deserved to be in the HoF.
This is not an absolute rule, but for the most part, QBs in today's day and age that belong in the HoF are the ones whose teams you know should win 9-10 games or more every year, regardless of any other details you have on the team (i.e. Brady, Rodgers, Brees, maybe Luck (soon enough) & Big Ben, not so much Eli, Romo, Flacco, Stafford, Ryan, etc). Again, it's not a hard rule, but to me works more often than not.