Author Topic: NFL Master Thread  (Read 265023 times)

Offline yoshyosh

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Online skyguy918

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Re: NFL playoffs 2015
« Reply #181 on: January 19, 2015, 09:43:35 AM »
The reason why LT is in the discussion is because he changed the way the game is played. Nothing to do with
IYO. Either way, you're in the wrong discussion. Most influential? Now you have something to talk about.

If anything, your point is an argument against him because one could claim he was only so successful because teams had never seen that type of player and strategy. And if he'd been playing today the skills and strategies that have emerged dealing with the concept of a pass rushing LB would make him less effective (I don't actually believe that, I just don't think your particular argument is relevant to the discussion of greatest NFL player).

By definition, if he wasn't the best at his position, or if another position is more critical to a team's success, you can't call him the greatest player, no matter what his impact on the game was.

Online skyguy918

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Re: NFL playoffs 2015
« Reply #182 on: January 19, 2015, 09:46:36 AM »
It is called dominating games. Take the 85 Bears. Look at the playoff games. Two shutouts and 10 points in the SB. This Seattle team comes no where near that. It is a joke to compare them to these teams. Even if they shutout NE they still don't belong. What if NE scores big?
You're avoiding my point. If you want to argue that no defense in this era could be as great as the '85 Bears simply because of the rules they played with, I'll buy that. But that's an opinion (and an even more subjective one than the basic question of which defense was better). It's just not possible to 'dominate' in the way the Bears did in today's game.

Online skyguy918

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Re: NFL playoffs 2015
« Reply #183 on: January 19, 2015, 09:48:49 AM »
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/68778308/nfl-ranking-best-defenses-in-history-seattle-seahawks-chicago-bears
Quote
If the Seahawks defense had played a decade ago the way its did this year, it would not have been as impressive. But the advances in offensive football gave the 2013 Seahawks defense unquestioned credibility. "What they did stands out because of the way rule changes have affected offense," said Ravens general manager Ozzie Newsome, who played against the Steel Curtain and the Bears in the mid-'80s and put together the 2000 Ravens. "More scoring, the rules favor that. Back in the day, corners could absolutely beat guys up."

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: NFL playoffs 2015
« Reply #184 on: January 19, 2015, 09:50:18 AM »
You're avoiding my point. If you want to argue that no defense in this era could be as great as the '85 Bears simply because of the rules they played with, I'll buy that. But that's an opinion (and an even more subjective one than the basic question of which defense was better). It's just not possible to 'dominate' in the way the Bears did in today's game.
Stop with the rules BS. Seattle had a span (dominated) this year where they were as good or better than the 85 Bears with the current rules.
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Online skyguy918

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Re: NFL playoffs 2015
« Reply #185 on: January 19, 2015, 10:26:13 AM »
Stop with the rules BS. Seattle had a span (dominated) this year where they were as good or better than the 85 Bears with the current rules.
Lol, read the section in the article yosh linked to on Seattle, where this point is brought up again and again, by several well respected NFL personalities.

In fact, you'll find that some people think part of the reason they're so successful is that they stretch those exact rules, and get away with a lot of stuff. The article does make the point that Seattle as a team are fantastic tacklers, something that is harder and harder to find these days. Of course that's a pretty terrible headline argument for greatest ever - 'we tackle real good!'  :D

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: NFL playoffs 2015
« Reply #186 on: January 19, 2015, 10:32:27 AM »
Lol, read the section in the article yosh linked to on Seattle, where this point is brought up again and again, by several well respected NFL personalities.
Anyone can make any point they want to but that does not change the facts. In 85 they came up with the 46 defense that change the game. That combined with the Bears having great players made them one of the best ever, not the rules.
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Online skyguy918

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Re: NFL playoffs 2015
« Reply #187 on: January 19, 2015, 10:39:05 AM »
Anyone can make any point they want to but that does not change the facts. In 85 they came up with the 46 defense that change the game. That combined with the Bears having great players made them one of the best ever, not the rules.
Facts? The fact that they came up with the 46 defense makes them the best ever? That doesn't make you the greatest ever. Having the best players and playing better together as a team than any other does. The rules point was just a response to mitigate the knock that they weren't dominant, that they allowed to many total points, etc.

FTR, I think Seattle's not particularly close to the '85 Bears. But you can't have a discussion about them out of the context of the era in which they played.

I also think that if they stay together (at least the 3 all-pros) and play like this for a few more years, then their secondary probably takes the crown for best secondary ever.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: NFL playoffs 2015
« Reply #188 on: January 19, 2015, 10:52:15 AM »
Facts? The fact that they came up with the 46 defense makes them the best ever? That doesn't make you the greatest ever. Having the best players and playing better together as a team than any other does. The rules point was just a response to mitigate the knock that they weren't dominant, that they allowed to many total points, etc.
You missed the point. The 46 was something that was never seen before. That combined with great players to execute it made them dominate other teams. The scheme you run does not make you great. Teams then adjusted to the 46. Someone will come out with another defensive scheme to counter the current rules. Execute with great players and dominate just like the teams of old.

Didn't the same thing happen with the "West Coast offense"?
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: NFL playoffs 2015
« Reply #189 on: January 19, 2015, 10:53:55 AM »
I also think that if they stay together (at least the 3 all-pros) and play like this for a few more years, then their secondary probably takes the crown for best secondary ever.
That will be because of the new rules.  :P
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Online skyguy918

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Re: NFL playoffs 2015
« Reply #190 on: January 19, 2015, 11:40:48 AM »
You missed the point. The 46 was something that was never seen before. That combined with great players to execute it made them dominate other teams. The scheme you run does not make you great. Teams then adjusted to the 46. Someone will come out with another defensive scheme to counter the current rules. Execute with great players and dominate just like the teams of old.

Didn't the same thing happen with the "West Coast offense"?
You're literally repeating what I'm saying. What made them great was not that they played a great new defensive scheme, it's that they crushed everyone. So leave the 46 out of it.

And again, my point about the rules is not that they're somehow great because of the rules. My point is that you have to look at how good a defense was in comparison to other defenses at the time. Sure it's possible everyone else was just terrible and that's why a team looked good. But more often than not in sports, there are other factors at play that make direct era-to-era comparisons less valuable than how much a team stood out within its era.

I totally disagree with your point about defenses eventually adapting to the current rules. There are some things you can't strategize/scheme against. It's like hand-checking in basketball (which FYI is always brought up in Jordan-as-GOAT discussions - not that he needs much help). Sure, teams have adapted - and that has resulted in higher scoring totals.
That will be because of the new rules.  :P
I think I've said this about you before, but it bears repeating: You just can't teach an old dog new tricks. ;)

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: NFL playoffs 2015
« Reply #191 on: January 19, 2015, 11:58:55 AM »
You're literally repeating what I'm saying. What made them great was not that they played a great new defensive scheme, it's that they crushed everyone. So leave the 46 out of it.
Cool Hand Luke we have going on here. Leave the 46 out? What are you smoking? Without that scheme they are an average defense.
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Online skyguy918

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Re: NFL playoffs 2015
« Reply #192 on: January 19, 2015, 12:03:44 PM »
Cool Hand Luke we have going on here. Leave the 46 out? What are you smoking? Without that scheme they are an average defense.
Who said anything about them playing another scheme? Of course they wouldn't have played well without it. But their greatness is defined by their results, not how they got there.

Offline dd321

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Re: NFL playoffs 2015
« Reply #193 on: January 19, 2015, 12:37:07 PM »
Seattle doesn't even come close to the 2000 Ravens.
They were absolutely stifling vs the run.

Online skyguy918

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Re: NFL playoffs 2015
« Reply #194 on: January 19, 2015, 12:52:09 PM »
'02 Tampa doesn't get quite as much love as some of the other great defenses, but there's never been a team that won the SB with less on the offensive side of the ball than them. That's got to count for something, right?

[I know, I know, the '00 Ravens somehow won with Dilfer at QB. But they had Jamal Lewis! And Priest Holmes was his backup!]

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: NFL playoffs 2015
« Reply #195 on: January 19, 2015, 01:06:08 PM »
'02 Tampa doesn't get quite as much love as some of the other great defenses, but there's never been a team that won the SB with less on the offensive side of the ball than them. That's got to count for something, right?
If it was true. What are you going by, points scored?
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Online skyguy918

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Re: NFL playoffs 2015
« Reply #196 on: January 19, 2015, 01:49:46 PM »
If it was true. What are you going by, points scored?
I wasn't going particularly off of that, but that's probably a good start. The '00 Ravens are right there, if not worse, by most offensive metrics. But TB's only weapon was Keyshawn - and how much of a weapon is it when the only way to get the ball to him is through Brad Smith :P. Baltimore had a stellar run game, even if their passing attack was worse (somehow) than TB's. That's definitely more a feel/emotional argument than a rational one, but even I'm prone to such things on occasion ;D

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: NFL playoffs 2015
« Reply #197 on: January 19, 2015, 02:15:41 PM »
I wasn't going particularly off of that, but that's probably a good start. The '00 Ravens are right there, if not worse, by most offensive metrics.
Worst offense and best defense team that has won a SB based on facts, not opinions or conjecture.  :P
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Offline Ergel

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Re: NFL playoffs 2015
« Reply #198 on: January 20, 2015, 11:30:58 PM »
Thoughts on the patriots cheating yet again?


And does each time hold the balls for their own offensive possessions?
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Offline Baruch

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Re: NFL playoffs 2015
« Reply #199 on: January 20, 2015, 11:41:45 PM »
Thoughts on the patriots cheating yet again?


And does each time hold the balls for their own offensive possessions?
I think they should disqualify The Pats and the Colts should play the SB.
I'm dead serious.
Enough is enough!
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