Poll

What is your position on entering Har Habayis?

Assur
19 (73.1%)
Not sure/don't know
5 (19.2%)
It is muttar/mitzvah - I haven't done it personally though
0 (0%)
It is muttar/mitzvah - I go up myself
2 (7.7%)

Total Members Voted: 26

Author Topic: Hagaon Harav Shteinman: Going on Har Habayis is absolutely Assur & causes Tzaros  (Read 27922 times)

Offline EliJelly

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A list of stretches and half truths
That the Rambam "went up himself" is disputed, and is in no way based on a clear reliable source.

"Lubavitcher Rebbe seemed to say some pro statements" That's enough for you? Seemed to say some pro statements? Regardless, read again the wiki you linked. He clearly suggests learning the laws of the Beis Hamikdosh *instead* of going up on har habayis.

Bais Yisroel went up, my foot. Same with Reb Moshe, he talks about Kosel in that tshuva and clearly stresses that only that has the mesorah. IDK why you admitted half truths.  :)

Offline aygart

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Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline imayid2

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i could answer your points one by one, but will answer one ramban in sefer hamitzvos clearly says that one who is toivel doyrasa is SAME as one who wasn't toivel at all, no mitzva whatsoever
my main point in my reply to you is that your list clearly shows that you have alot of learning to do still, so i can't be possibly be convinced about your knowledge of makom hamikdash
lets both agree that the chazon ish could compile a better list of reasons to go up
(Some punctuation would be nice)

The Rambam clearly counts it as a מצוה דאורייתא so it's unclear how citing a Ramban and ignoring the Rambam is helpful to to your cause.

Offline imayid2

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THis doesn't look like it is from the 1300s
C'mon now. He quotes sources from that era.

Offline aygart

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C'mon now. He quotes sources from that era.

Yes but a few sources who made their own judgements at the time does not show a mesora at that time.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Newhere

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I’m not following. Can you explain how your politics negates לפני עור? And why are they allowed to go up בטומאה if they can toival?

I didn't want to get sidetracked but ok.

I don't view the police and soldiers on Har Habayis as protecting me. The opposite! The police are there to stop me and interfere! If not for the police, we would have a lot more freedom on Har Habayis. The police are the ones imposing the Judenrein policy of not allowing us to bring in siddurim, tefillin, sifrei Torah, forcing us to daven quietly and arresting anyone that breaks their arbitrary rules. So the police are exactly like the police who come to the protests on Shabbos - I don't want them there! I basically view the Secular State and its apparatus as an Occupying Army who is there to colonialize our Land! (Hey sounds familiar). I am sure this comment will take the thread off topic. But maybe we should start a new discussion so we can keep this one on topic...

I doubt most of you agree with my perspective.

So let's continue with the mainstream perspective: the police are there to protect us, we need them to accompany us to protect us from the Arabs etc. We are so greatful to the police for everything they do for us blah blah blah.

If so, there is a difference between the police accompanying the groups on Har Habayis to the police coming to the Shabbos protests. On Har Habayis they are being asked to do an issur - whereas in the protests, they are being asked NOT to do an issur.

Even if we take on this perspective, we still have reason to be mattir: because there is a mitzvah of Kibbush and Kibbush is docheh Lifnei Iver (so that solves the issue for the olim).

On the personal level of the police themselves the kibbush and is also Docheh tumah. And even if the policeman was poshea and didn't go to mikveh - but now has an oppurtunity to be kovesh - he is also allowed to be kovesh despite his tumah.

BTW, the police also go up on Har Habayis to protect the Jews davening at the Kosel.

Offline Newhere

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A list of stretches and half truths
That the Rambam "went up himself" is disputed, and is in no way based on a clear reliable source.

"Lubavitcher Rebbe seemed to say some pro statements" That's enough for you? Seemed to say some pro statements? Regardless, read again the wiki you linked. He clearly suggests learning the laws of the Beis Hamikdosh *instead* of going up on har habayis.

You say that the entire list is stretches and half truths. And then respond to only two. There were 12 Gedolim mentioned on the list - please explain how they are all stretches and half truths.

The list again was:
Rambam, Radvaz, Rav Chaim Alfandri, Chida, Tevuos Haaretz, Shaarei Teshuva and Kaf Hachaim, Rav Dov Kook, Rav Bet Tzion Mutzafi, Rav Yisroel Yaakov Fisher, the Beis Yisroel of Ger and the Rosh Yeshiva of Tshebin (Rav Boruch Shimon Schneorsohn).

______________________________
Rambam said himself that he went up - see here https://zadikim.com/places/%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%95-%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%94-%D7%91%D7%9F-%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%9F-%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%9E%D7%91%D7%9D/#:~:text=%D7%95%D7%99%D7%95%D7%9D%20%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%99%20%D7%91%D7%A9%D7%91%D7%AA,%D7%91%D7%A0%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%AA%D7%94%20%D7%9E%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%94%2C%20%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%9F%22

The minchas yitzchak tried to reinterpret the words הבית הגדול והקדוש to mean a shul in Yerushalaim. Do I have to respond to that? Is that really logical?

____________
Please read the wiki again. I don't dispute the fact that the Lubavitcher Rebbe spoke out against going to Har Habayis. The question is if he sometimes said something different - and that seems to be the case. Please see the quotes in the footnotes of the wiki. You can speculate as to why he said these contradictory things. The author of that version of the wiki (later censored) says that the pro comments were later on in his life and reflected a change in his approach.

Whatever you will say - those quotes exist - which must mean that at some level, at some time, in a certain circumstance, somehow he supported going up to Har Habayis.

Offline Newhere

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1. i could answer your points one by one, but will answer one ramban in sefer hamitzvos clearly says that one who is toivel doyrasa is SAME as one who wasn't toivel at all, no mitzva whatsoever
2. my main point in my reply to you is that your list clearly shows that you have alot of learning to do still, so i can't be possibly be convinced about your knowledge of makom hamikdash
3. lets both agree that the chazon ish could compile a better list of reasons to go up

1. Source please?
2. Ad hominem? Please actualy make a point.
3. Agreed. Not sure what the point is?

Offline Newhere

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1. Bais Yisroel went up,
2. my foot.
3. Same with Reb Moshe, he talks about Kosel in that tshuva and clearly stresses that only that has the mesorah. IDK why you admitted half truths.  :)
1. Correct. I am glad you read the article I linked.
2. What's wrong with your foot? I can recommend a doctor if you want.
3. This is the relevant part of the Teshuva:


Offline Newhere

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Yes but a few sources who made their own judgements at the time does not show a mesora at that time.

You are being utterly ridiculous. Are you telling me that they walked in and just decided on the spot - that the even hashtiyoh is under the dome?

And this judgement was made on the spot. And the didn't even bother to tell us how they came to that conclusion. And strangely enough all of these Rabbonim throughout the generations all unanimously came to the same judgement (and they all forgot to tell us how they came to that judgement).

In the Radvaz's teshuva on going up to Har Habayis he says unequivocally: וזה כי הדבר ברור שתחת הכיפה שם אבן השתיה בלי ספק הנקרא אצלם אלסכרא.

Next!

Offline imayid2

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I doubt most of you agree with my perspective.

So let's continue with the mainstream perspective: the police are there to protect us, we need them to accompany us to protect us from the Arabs etc. We are so greatful to the police for everything they do for us blah blah blah.

If so, there is a difference between the police accompanying the groups on Har Habayis to the police coming to the Shabbos protests. On Har Habayis they are being asked to do an issur - whereas in the protests, they are being asked NOT to do an issur.

Even if we take on this perspective, we still have reason to be mattir: because there is a mitzvah of Kibbush and Kibbush is docheh Lifnei Iver (so that solves the issue for the olim).

On the personal level of the police themselves the kibbush and is also Docheh tumah. And even if the policeman was poshea and didn't go to mikveh - but now has an oppurtunity to be kovesh - he is also allowed to be kovesh despite his tumah.

BTW, the police also go up on Har Habayis to protect the Jews davening at the Kosel.
Why is kibbush doche lfnei ivar? Is there a source for this idea? If you’d only be able to go on shabbos in a way that involved melacha would it be doche shabbos?

Offline aygart

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You are being utterly ridiculous. Are you telling me that they walked in and just decided on the spot - that the even hashtiyoh is under the dome?

And this judgement was made on the spot. And the didn't even bother to tell us how they came to that conclusion. And strangely enough all of these Rabbonim throughout the generations all unanimously came to the same judgement (and they all forgot to tell us how they came to that judgement).

In the Radvaz's teshuva on going up to Har Habayis he says unequivocally: וזה כי הדבר ברור שתחת הכיפה שם אבן השתיה בלי ספק הנקרא אצלם אלסכרא.

Next!


It is a very logical conclusion, but many making the same logical conclusion does not make a mesorah against someone who has a differing conclusion.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline lover of truth

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(Some punctuation would be nice)

The Rambam clearly counts it as a מצוה דאורייתא so it's unclear how citing a Ramban and ignoring the Rambam is helpful to to your cause.
the ramban is explaining that just bec its a mitzvah it doesnt mean that one should run after being mekayem it, or that one is a tzadik for doing it, like he says one who washes נטילת ידים ten times is the same as one who didnt wash at all, its being a mitzvah just mean that this is the proper way to become טהור if one needs to.
secondly when someone says he's going up to the הר הבית to be mekayem the rambam that holds that מןרא מקדש is only in the mikdash and not in a shul even when the chafetz chaim pakens its also in a shul, and also to be mekayem tevila דאורייתא when according to many rishonim hold every erev yom tov is a דאורייתא even bzman hazeh, they are so interested in מעלת התפילה when many of them daven  after zman tefila regularly. its  obvious that they dont have the level of yiras shamayim that they want to be mekayem all sorts of shitos in rishonim rather they want to go up for whatever the reason, mostly to be different and show how smart they are. They dont care about these reasons, even when you disprove their reasons another pops up, so no point in debating them

Offline imayid2

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they are so interested in מעלת התפילה when many of them daven  after zman tefila regularly. its  obvious that they dont have the level of yiras shamayim that they want to be mekayem all sorts of shitos in rishonim rather they want to go up for whatever the reason, mostly to be different and show how smart they are.
Who are they and them that are davening after zman tefillah?

@Newhere what’s with this new allegation? Your group of guys aren’t makpid on zman tefillah?

Offline EliJelly

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Who are they and them that are davening after zman tefillah?

@Newhere what’s with this new allegation? Your group of guys aren’t makpid on zman tefillah?

They are, except if a kibush opportunity comes up, then it's being nidcha.

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which must mean that at some level, at some time, in a certain circumstance, somehow he supported going up to Har Habayis.

Exactly. It just must be. It's impossible not.