Author Topic: About that "jewish" wedding  (Read 22975 times)

Offline Pony

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Re: About that "jewish" wedding
« Reply #300 on: June 19, 2023, 12:40:24 PM »
Serious question though, as a parent, we all want our children be happy and have a successful lives. No one here should know of this test, but what would someone do if their child is gay and has zero interest the opposite gender?  There is no place for single people in the frum community. Do you try to force the child into a loveless marriage ?

Reposting from earlier in this thread.

Rav Asher Weiss. Starts at 12:30 on the below link. Note that this was said in 2017.

https://mytat.me/v38625

Offline jye

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Re: About that "jewish" wedding
« Reply #301 on: June 19, 2023, 12:47:11 PM »
[Tweet]1670646354807275521[/tweet]
There was a closed meeting with Rav Asher Weiss , Dr pelcovitz, and medical practitioners at a conference earlier this year and the consensus was that social media is a huge driver of much of this issue and the medical community’s guidelines in these areas and the interplay of emotional health , suicidal tendencies, etc. and the way the medical community is pushing that they be addressed are largely incompatible with the Torah view and are not evidence based or effective.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2023, 01:44:59 PM by jye »

Offline whacked1

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Re: About that "jewish" wedding
« Reply #302 on: June 19, 2023, 01:01:53 PM »
There was a closed meeting
Curious, if it was a closed meeting how do you have consensus of the meeting?
There was a closed meeting with Rav Asher Weiss , Dr pelcovitz, and medical practitioners at a conference earlier this year and the consensus was that social media is a huge driver of much of this issue
Of which issue?
the medical community’s guidelines in these areas and the interplay of emotional health , suicidal tendencies, etc. and the way the medical community is pushing that they be addressed are largely incompatible with the Torah view and are not evidence based or effective.
What isnt evidence based and what isnt effective? What's incompatible with the torah?

I dont understand your post.

Offline Ver hut gazugt

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Re: About that "jewish" wedding
« Reply #303 on: June 19, 2023, 01:24:45 PM »
It isn't as effective as advertised and is painful.
not sure how it is advertised. Some may dispute the statistics but they showed significant  effectiveness. However, when you look at their tactics, we would probably disprove of a lot of it. Also, the big issue at least then, was not how effective it was but rather that for those who it did not work for became suicidal. This is not a simple topic there is a lot of nuances and much we still do not know.


Offline Ver hut gazugt

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Re: About that "jewish" wedding
« Reply #304 on: June 19, 2023, 01:30:32 PM »
I would agree with the commentator pointing out that Shapiro has created a strawman.
Specifically, he’s conveniently ignoring Footnote 3 in the article:
I would add we all have prohibited desires. Men may have desires outside the home to. The main idea is can we help someone who wants to be helped. to have children and a functioning relationship with the opposite gender.

Offline imayid2

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Re: About that "jewish" wedding
« Reply #305 on: June 19, 2023, 02:07:30 PM »
Rav Asher Weiss. Starts at 12:30 on the below link. Note that this was said in 2017.

https://mytat.me/v38625
Beautiful.

@13:35 he’s clearly referring to this
https://hakirah.org/Vol%2012%20Goldberg.pdf

Offline AMH

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Re: About that "jewish" wedding
« Reply #306 on: June 19, 2023, 03:36:03 PM »
I wouldn't trust medications like that
Well if there is no other choice at having a normal life than might be worth the risk.
👆 אהבת חינם

Offline bochur22

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Re: About that "jewish" wedding
« Reply #307 on: June 21, 2023, 09:32:23 AM »
I'm assuming you're referring to conversion therapy.

The general medical community has banned this. That's not to say it's never effective. But it is allegedly quite uncomfortable, anecdotally, based on reports from those that it did not work on (and it's probably no fun even for those it did work for, but at least it worked).

All this to say that "go work on yourself " is for sure not a solution across the board, although it can work for many. And perhaps the people it worked for are more bisexual rather than gay, and they just needed to find the right opposite gender individual.
The term "Conversion Therapy" has been used as a catch-all for anything hoping to affect orientation, from electroshock treatment to normal Cognitive behavioral therapy. Some work for some people, some are barbaric. But tarring all of them with the "Conversion therapy" brush is a way of pushing out treatments that stand against the narrative of the day, kind of like a reverse of the gender affirming care euphemism. The website GuardYourEyes.com has a forum for those struggling with unwanted same-gender attraction, and there are many stories there of those who have been helped through therapy and similar steps.

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Re: About that "jewish" wedding
« Reply #308 on: June 21, 2023, 12:00:47 PM »
I'm assuming you're referring to conversion therapy.

The general medical community has banned this. That's not to say it's never effective. But it is allegedly quite uncomfortable, anecdotally, based on reports from those that it did not work on (and it's probably no fun even for those it did work for, but at least it worked).

All this to say that "go work on yourself " is for sure not a solution across the board, although it can work for many. And perhaps the people it worked for are more bisexual rather than gay, and they just needed to find the right opposite gender individual.
The same people against conversion therapy believe that there's 100 genders and
 in transgednder surgery assignments.

(Being gay is natural, but gender isn't natural?)


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Offline imayid2

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Re: About that "jewish" wedding
« Reply #310 on: June 21, 2023, 04:53:43 PM »
https://spectator.org/pride-month-take-pride-in-your-traditional-family-values/

Pride Month,” huh? Proud of what?

Honestly, what is the actual message when someone parades that he-she-they is “proud” to be LGBTQIA+? If we penetrate the static, he simply is declaring that he wants the world to know his coitus preferences. That’s it. He is not declaring his religion, ethnicity, or political views. He simply is declaring, “I consort physically with …”

Aside from all other concerns, isn’t that, uh, terribly private? It is shameful to prattle on about even normal heterosexuality to others. TMI.

In a normal society, people sensibly would be repulsed: “That is something to parade? My father and mother — and all other billions of fathers and mothers — do not promenade, bellowing whom they prefer in the bedroom. Who parades to tell the world he lusts for redheads? Or for certain body shapes and dimensions? Who does this? Keep your private business to yourself — we don’t want to know.”
That simple commonsense reaction would be true even if LGBTQIA+ behavior were not outside of nature. It is no one’s business. Do people with irritable bowel syndrome parade behind a brown flag to proclaim pride in their common situation? Or people who need to wake up several times nightly to micturate? How did this perverted and corrupted culture ever come to this?

And what could be more perverted than for a baseball team to give a stage to “Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence,” a group that devotes itself to tearing down Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular? They began in San Francisco as homosexual men dressing as nuns. They choose names based on the process of renaming women inducted into Catholic orders, but that are sexually offensive: Sister Anita Blowjob, Sister GladAss of the Joyous Reserectum, and such. The Los Angeles Dodgers baseball club is a professional athletic organization that has offered apolitical entertainment primarily to the residents of Southern California, and also to Dodgers’ fans throughout America. Baseball is an inter-generational family pastime, and the sport historically has been associated with wholesome family values. There is no place in baseball for the interjection of political partisanship or woke counter-cultural advocacy that offends mainstream religious family sensitivities. Drag queens who dress like nuns and mock the sacred sacraments of the Catholic Church have ample other platforms to promote their depraved activities and deeply offensive images.

Truth can coexist with courtesy. We can empathize with and care for those with gender dysphoria, mental illness, unnatural attractions, and other orientations outside society’s norm. Doors should be open to those who approach with respect.

The ongoing years-long failures of even traditional conservative churches and synagogues, congregational organizations, and institutions to address LGBTQIA+ tyranny has emboldened outliers to assert and even demand a brazen “right” to have their LGBTQIA+ status and their transgender extremes honored and even hallowed. Incomprehensibly, they expect Bud Light consumers to go along, meekly, like sheep. Target shoppers. Disney vacationers. Frankly, all of America. They expect us to patronize their movies and television shows, all embedding woke messages. They expect us to give them the grand stage of a baseball stadium to spit on religion, mocking it in a way that society never would allow if aimed by mainstream citizens at outlier targets.

They expect their devoutly religious parents, siblings, and other relatives to attend their “gay nuptials.” They expect churches and synagogues to celebrate their public desecrations by announcing their “weddings” and even hosting their collations. Like children who threaten to hold their breath “until they turn blue,” they insert into their every polemic that, if they are not given everything they demand, it will be on the heads of everyone else that they will commit suicide.

Suicide is almost always an act of mental illness. A population subgroup that regularly speaks of their high suicide rate should think about what they are saying about themselves. Discrimination does not breed suicide; otherwise, Jews would have registered two millennia of world-leading suicide rates. Mental illness, gender dysphoria, unnatural desires, and related matters must be approached with sensitivity and loving-kindness. But they must be recognized for what they are. Throughout nature, the male–female union is normal.

Woke tyranny coerces silent acquiescence and lip service, where people regularly speak against conscience. To hold their jobs, normal people grimly hold their tongues. They don’t want to be socially ostracized. Therefore, we do not hear people speaking commonsense truths about what is natural and what is unnatural. Even a Supreme Court justice nominee, on the brink of receiving a high-paying lifetime job at a hearing where she has the votes, was terrified to define a woman. Even though the only reason she was named to the post was that she — like Joe Biden’s U.N. ambassador, his sub-mediocre press spokesperson, and his below-sub-mediocre vice president — is a woman. We are not allowed to say it. That leaves a monopoly for an outlier minority to dominate the discourse and demand acquiescence to its lifestyle that deviates from the norm.

Ironically, I probably have pastorally counseled and stood by more LGBTQIA+ men and women than have 99 percent of my readers and colleagues in the clergy. Most of whom I have counseled have approached me in venues varying from law schools where I taught to actual law-firm practice, where law associates approached me confidentially. Many in disquietude just naturally assume that a rabbi would be more caring than a regular law professor or big-firm litigator. They are correct. Then word of mouth spreads from those I helpfully have counseled, giving rise to more individuals privately seeking my guidance and caring.

Yet, when I read mushy, touchy-feely, woke-inspired apologetics by even conservative religious leaders and associations about how much “more” needs to be done for the LGBTQIA+ community, I ask:
… What about religious teens, who, all data show as do empirical results in America, will abandon religion and faith as their secular colleges ruin them?
… And what about women (long-term singles, divorced, widowed) over age 40 or 45 who desperately want to marry but cannot find a husband — so (i) live desperate lonely lives and (ii) sometimes ultimately will give up on core personal values and standards because the loneliness is unbearable?
… And what about people going through a divorce, whether spouses rifting or their children experiencing their homes breaking and their innocence shattered?
… And what about people diagnosed with terminal diseases like cancer, needing incredible amounts of encouragement and reassurance just to go on? To do their chemo, overcome the psychological impact of their hair falling out, sitting for hours during infusions, living with bouts of nausea, doubting the time they have left? And what of their families and loved ones?
… And what about people who have lost their jobs or incomes or never really have had enough income, and maybe never will, and face losing their homes or marriages for financial reasons?
… And what about people with all kinds of other needs — physical, spiritual, emotional — who deserve at least as much of our time and focus as do the LGBTQIA+ population?

What about them — they who compose such a larger part of our society but do not enjoy the glamor of woke advocacy and TV and movie entertainers and TikTok influencers endlessly parroting their “cause”?
We must not allow others to intimidate us to adopt alien values and priorities. In a world where lies are defended by the woke as “My Truth,” we must bear witness to Our Truth.

Those who are LGBTQIA+ should receive compassion, not public audience accolades at Dodgers Stadium. They should be seeking pastoral counsel privately rather than promenading in boisterous “pride parades.” Pride? In having unnatural desires?

In polite society, homosexuality always was personal and private — and so was and is “straight” heterosexuality.

The advocates and virtue signalers parrot “woke” platitudes dominating today’s coarse secular Western culture. LGBTQIA+ is an acronym that means Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Transsexual, Two-Spirit, Queer, Questioning, Intersex, Asexual, Ally, A-gender, Bi-gender, Pansexual, Pangender, and Gender Variant. Keep an open mind because this list continually evolves, and English has 19 letters left.
Those LGBTQIA+ people whom we may be able to help will seek and find us because we mean well and do nothing to alienate them. If they do not seek us, our plates always will be full of so many others whose needs are even more deserving of our focus and time. Parade that with Pride.

Offline Shaya E

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Re: About that "jewish" wedding
« Reply #311 on: June 21, 2023, 10:59:02 PM »
https://spectator.org/pride-month-take-pride-in-your-traditional-family-values/

Pride Month,” huh? Proud of what?

Honestly, what is the actual message when someone parades that he-she-they is “proud” to be LGBTQIA+? If we penetrate the static, he simply is declaring that he wants the world to know his coitus preferences. That’s it. He is not declaring his religion, ethnicity, or political views. He simply is declaring, “I consort physically with …”

Aside from all other concerns, isn’t that, uh, terribly private? It is shameful to prattle on about even normal heterosexuality to others. TMI.

In a normal society, people sensibly would be repulsed: “That is something to parade? My father and mother — and all other billions of fathers and mothers — do not promenade, bellowing whom they prefer in the bedroom. Who parades to tell the world he lusts for redheads? Or for certain body shapes and dimensions? Who does this? Keep your private business to yourself — we don’t want to know.”
That simple commonsense reaction would be true even if LGBTQIA+ behavior were not outside of nature. It is no one’s business. Do people with irritable bowel syndrome parade behind a brown flag to proclaim pride in their common situation? Or people who need to wake up several times nightly to micturate? How did this perverted and corrupted culture ever come to this?

And what could be more perverted than for a baseball team to give a stage to “Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence,” a group that devotes itself to tearing down Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular? They began in San Francisco as homosexual men dressing as nuns. They choose names based on the process of renaming women inducted into Catholic orders, but that are sexually offensive: Sister Anita Blowjob, Sister GladAss of the Joyous Reserectum, and such. The Los Angeles Dodgers baseball club is a professional athletic organization that has offered apolitical entertainment primarily to the residents of Southern California, and also to Dodgers’ fans throughout America. Baseball is an inter-generational family pastime, and the sport historically has been associated with wholesome family values. There is no place in baseball for the interjection of political partisanship or woke counter-cultural advocacy that offends mainstream religious family sensitivities. Drag queens who dress like nuns and mock the sacred sacraments of the Catholic Church have ample other platforms to promote their depraved activities and deeply offensive images.

Truth can coexist with courtesy. We can empathize with and care for those with gender dysphoria, mental illness, unnatural attractions, and other orientations outside society’s norm. Doors should be open to those who approach with respect.

The ongoing years-long failures of even traditional conservative churches and synagogues, congregational organizations, and institutions to address LGBTQIA+ tyranny has emboldened outliers to assert and even demand a brazen “right” to have their LGBTQIA+ status and their transgender extremes honored and even hallowed. Incomprehensibly, they expect Bud Light consumers to go along, meekly, like sheep. Target shoppers. Disney vacationers. Frankly, all of America. They expect us to patronize their movies and television shows, all embedding woke messages. They expect us to give them the grand stage of a baseball stadium to spit on religion, mocking it in a way that society never would allow if aimed by mainstream citizens at outlier targets.

They expect their devoutly religious parents, siblings, and other relatives to attend their “gay nuptials.” They expect churches and synagogues to celebrate their public desecrations by announcing their “weddings” and even hosting their collations. Like children who threaten to hold their breath “until they turn blue,” they insert into their every polemic that, if they are not given everything they demand, it will be on the heads of everyone else that they will commit suicide.

Suicide is almost always an act of mental illness. A population subgroup that regularly speaks of their high suicide rate should think about what they are saying about themselves. Discrimination does not breed suicide; otherwise, Jews would have registered two millennia of world-leading suicide rates. Mental illness, gender dysphoria, unnatural desires, and related matters must be approached with sensitivity and loving-kindness. But they must be recognized for what they are. Throughout nature, the male–female union is normal.

Woke tyranny coerces silent acquiescence and lip service, where people regularly speak against conscience. To hold their jobs, normal people grimly hold their tongues. They don’t want to be socially ostracized. Therefore, we do not hear people speaking commonsense truths about what is natural and what is unnatural. Even a Supreme Court justice nominee, on the brink of receiving a high-paying lifetime job at a hearing where she has the votes, was terrified to define a woman. Even though the only reason she was named to the post was that she — like Joe Biden’s U.N. ambassador, his sub-mediocre press spokesperson, and his below-sub-mediocre vice president — is a woman. We are not allowed to say it. That leaves a monopoly for an outlier minority to dominate the discourse and demand acquiescence to its lifestyle that deviates from the norm.

Ironically, I probably have pastorally counseled and stood by more LGBTQIA+ men and women than have 99 percent of my readers and colleagues in the clergy. Most of whom I have counseled have approached me in venues varying from law schools where I taught to actual law-firm practice, where law associates approached me confidentially. Many in disquietude just naturally assume that a rabbi would be more caring than a regular law professor or big-firm litigator. They are correct. Then word of mouth spreads from those I helpfully have counseled, giving rise to more individuals privately seeking my guidance and caring.

Yet, when I read mushy, touchy-feely, woke-inspired apologetics by even conservative religious leaders and associations about how much “more” needs to be done for the LGBTQIA+ community, I ask:
… What about religious teens, who, all data show as do empirical results in America, will abandon religion and faith as their secular colleges ruin them?
… And what about women (long-term singles, divorced, widowed) over age 40 or 45 who desperately want to marry but cannot find a husband — so (i) live desperate lonely lives and (ii) sometimes ultimately will give up on core personal values and standards because the loneliness is unbearable?
… And what about people going through a divorce, whether spouses rifting or their children experiencing their homes breaking and their innocence shattered?
… And what about people diagnosed with terminal diseases like cancer, needing incredible amounts of encouragement and reassurance just to go on? To do their chemo, overcome the psychological impact of their hair falling out, sitting for hours during infusions, living with bouts of nausea, doubting the time they have left? And what of their families and loved ones?
… And what about people who have lost their jobs or incomes or never really have had enough income, and maybe never will, and face losing their homes or marriages for financial reasons?
… And what about people with all kinds of other needs — physical, spiritual, emotional — who deserve at least as much of our time and focus as do the LGBTQIA+ population?

What about them — they who compose such a larger part of our society but do not enjoy the glamor of woke advocacy and TV and movie entertainers and TikTok influencers endlessly parroting their “cause”?
We must not allow others to intimidate us to adopt alien values and priorities. In a world where lies are defended by the woke as “My Truth,” we must bear witness to Our Truth.

Those who are LGBTQIA+ should receive compassion, not public audience accolades at Dodgers Stadium. They should be seeking pastoral counsel privately rather than promenading in boisterous “pride parades.” Pride? In having unnatural desires?

In polite society, homosexuality always was personal and private — and so was and is “straight” heterosexuality.

The advocates and virtue signalers parrot “woke” platitudes dominating today’s coarse secular Western culture. LGBTQIA+ is an acronym that means Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Transsexual, Two-Spirit, Queer, Questioning, Intersex, Asexual, Ally, A-gender, Bi-gender, Pansexual, Pangender, and Gender Variant. Keep an open mind because this list continually evolves, and English has 19 letters left.
Those LGBTQIA+ people whom we may be able to help will seek and find us because we mean well and do nothing to alienate them. If they do not seek us, our plates always will be full of so many others whose needs are even more deserving of our focus and time. Parade that with Pride.

This article is so full of strawmen and logical fallacies that it is probably more likely to make people less sympathetic to the author's view.

Offline imayid2

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Re: About that "jewish" wedding
« Reply #312 on: June 22, 2023, 12:11:28 AM »
This article is so full of strawmen and logical fallacies that it is probably more likely to make people less sympathetic to the author's view.
Sometimes that isn't the whole point. הרואה סוטה בקלקולה...
Mir daf alein mechazek zein.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2023, 12:34:19 AM by imayid2 »

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Re: About that "jewish" wedding
« Reply #313 on: June 22, 2023, 05:18:20 AM »
This article is so full of strawmen and logical fallacies that it is probably more likely to make people less sympathetic to the author's view.
I suspect the author may be beyond caring about the reader's sympathies. Not that you are wrong.
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Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

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Re: About that "jewish" wedding
« Reply #314 on: June 22, 2023, 12:34:53 PM »
This article is so full of strawmen and logical fallacies that it is probably more likely to make people less sympathetic to the author's view.
Reminds me of mashgiach yelling during a shmooz in elul.

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Re: About that "jewish" wedding
« Reply #315 on: July 14, 2023, 11:18:44 AM »
https://stljewishlight.org/opinion/look-to-eternal-truths-of-the-torah-for-jewish-view-of-marriage-family/

Concerning the Jew, Leo Tolstoy wrote: “The Jew is that sacred being who has brought down from heaven the everlasting fire, and has illumined with it the entire world. He is the religious source, spring, and fountain out of which all the rest of the peoples have drawn their beliefs and their religion. The Jew is the pioneer of liberty. The Jew is the pioneer of civilization. The Jew is the emblem of eternity.”

The Jewish “emblem of eternity” can best be seen in the Biblical, traditional approach to marriage and family.

Until recently, most people took the institution of marriage for granted, hardly ever wondering at its universal acceptance.  The idea of man and woman living in a lifetime committed partnership in at least some form is as old as the beginnings of humanity.  That partnership, long-established in the Torah as the bedrock of a meaningful, sanctified and optimal life God desires for all His children, and the Jewish People in particular, is marriage.

Today, however, we live in an era when marriage and the family are under attack.  People young and old are exposed daily to misrepresentations of the traditional Jewish Biblical views on gender identity, sexuality and marriage. Promotion and even celebration of euphemistically termed “alternate lifestyles” is prevalent. It’s a war out there — a culture war.  Therefore, an examination of the timeless Jewish views on these issues must be offered.

The Book of Genesis declares, “Male and female He Created them.”  (1:27)  The following chapter explains that male and female were created together, and then separated so that husband and wife might rejoin, once again becoming “one flesh” through the forming of their offspring. And that is the sum total of what the Bible has to say about “gender identity.”  Men and women are distinct creations, complementary to each other, each made the way God wanted them to be.

A Jewish marriage is a sacred spiritual entity that calls upon man and woman to join not simply in a partnership, but to create a union where two distinct entities join to become one. The story is told of a prominent 20th century rabbi who accompanied his wife when she was in need of medical attention. When the office receptionist inquired what the issue was, the rabbi replied, “Our leg is hurting us.”

 A Jewish marriage is a template upon which to build a home in which God will feel welcome and dwell, a foundation upon which to actualize our emotional and spiritual potential. Marriage is the uniting of a man and woman, two personalities, two minds, two wills, two talents, two different genders — not just for now, but for always.

In the family structure we find the one human, social institution that is optimal for creating and forming the individual. This explains why those who have kept the Torah’s ways regarding marriage — and those who also have been blessed by God to raise a family — have, for thousands of years in different environments, created the most successful communities on the face of the earth.

Confusion about these basic eternal truths is so pervasive that at times it seems we live in an Orwellian dystopia. Academics, judges, politicians and lay people alike struggle to define questions as basic as “What is a man? What is a woman?” The Talmud records praise for the ancient world that “they do not write marriage documents for men.” Nearly a millennium ago, although such behavior occurred, and some even had specific, dedicated same-sex partners, they at least refrained from calling it “marriage.”

The Torah outlook clashes strongly with other aspects of the modern secular world. Adding to the bewilderment, surrounding us are notions such as “gender fluidity” and “multiple genders,” often blatantly misrepresented with claims of Jewish Biblical origin. Invasive and irreversible medical procedures are couched euphemistically as “gender affirming care” harming many, including vulnerable children.

Many years ago my travels took me to London. While riding the Tube (subway), a striking wall poster caught my eye. Displayed was a young girl sitting on a bed, cradling and hugging a small robot.  The caption read, “Times change. Values don’t.”

Times indeed have changed.  But the eternal truths of the Torah regarding marriage and family are just as true, enriching and elevating as they were when we received them at Mt. Sinai more than 3,000 years ago. Enduring Jewish pride and success derive from the acceptance and implementation of God’s timeless practices and values regarding marriage and family.  May we, our community, our society and the world as a whole merit these blessings.