Topic Wiki

Creation vs. Evolution

Creation

  • Evolutionary theory rests on precepts set out by old, obsolete book written over a hundred years ago
  • Scientifically corroborated by numerous peer-reviewed Facebook posts
  • Banana flawlessly designed for use as fake phone
  • Bible verses about molecular mutation and generational metamorphosis in allele frequencies clearly allegorical
  • Nine electoral votes in Alabama
  • Results of natural selection experiments have only been reproduced a few thousand times in a laboratory
  • Archaeopteryx way too awesome to have evolved into shitty birds of today
  • Far easier to understand than evolution


Evolution

  • Personal feud with God
  • Saw frog evolve from pollywog
  • Distinct morphological similarities between ancient Neanderthal and Trent
  • Nice to think we actually distantly related to family dog
  • Want to see how much more upright next figure in evolutionary chart will be standing
  • That one Star Trek: Voyager episode where helmsman Tom Paris goes through rapid evolution
  • Dazzling oratorical genius of Clarence Darrow
  • Universe was created out of nothing billions of years ago, which you’ll just have to trust us on

Source: The Onion

Author Topic: Evolution and the age of the universe  (Read 48467 times)

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17395
  • Total likes: 14333
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #120 on: February 12, 2015, 12:15:57 PM »
Machloikes.  Rav Elyashiv held one should not kill lice on Shabbos.  Many poiskim maintain that one can kill lice on Shabbos.  As I understand it, this is a corollary of the worms in fish machloikes.
תרי תנאי אליבא דר' אלישיב. ע' הל' שבת בשבת ומשמרת מועד
Interestingly, R' Karp does not write there the way you seem to think he would based on his position regarding the worms in fish.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Redbull3

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 3492
  • Total likes: 417
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #121 on: February 12, 2015, 12:18:45 PM »
For that we have a Mesorah and a Torah Shebe'al Peh, and the classic Mesorah is overwhelmingly for a literal interpretation of Bereishis (as well as any part of Torah that has practical applications).

I was taught the opposite, although I am not knowledgeable enough to know whether my Rebbe and his rebbe (etc etc) are in the overwhelming minority as you indicate.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17395
  • Total likes: 14333
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #122 on: February 12, 2015, 12:21:27 PM »
I stand corrected - machloikes - thank you. But the tzad that allows them to be killed does so because Halacha doesn't change just because our understanding of nature does.
Or because we say that what is meant by spontateos generation is the appearance of it or other similar explanations. The source for answering these things based upon things being microscopic can possibly be traced to the Ramban at the beginning of Beraishis regarding "hiyuli"
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Achas Veachas

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 4399
  • Total likes: 114
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
    • Torah && Tech
Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #123 on: February 12, 2015, 12:22:23 PM »
I was taught the opposite, although I am not knowledgeable enough to know whether my Rebbe and his rebbe (etc etc) are in the overwhelming minority as you indicate.
That's why I said "classic" Messorah. As JJ1000 pointed out before there are not too many (if any) Rishonim who held of a non-literal Bereishis.

Offline Redbull3

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 3492
  • Total likes: 417
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #124 on: February 12, 2015, 12:24:37 PM »
That's why I said "classic" Messorah. As JJ1000 pointed out before there are not too many (if any) Rishonim who held of a non-literal Bereishis.

I hear you. My mesora is very partial to rationalist approach, particularly the Rambam. You probably already knew this lol.

Offline Achas Veachas

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 4399
  • Total likes: 114
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
    • Torah && Tech
Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #125 on: February 12, 2015, 12:27:56 PM »
I hear you. My mesora is very partial to rationalist approach, particularly the Rambam. You probably already knew this lol.
I think i picked up on that :P

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 30533
  • Total likes: 7829
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #126 on: February 12, 2015, 12:36:30 PM »
I only skimmed this thread, but I'm going to comment anyway.
1. We cannot understand g-d: אילו ידעת ח״ו הייתיו, כי לא
מחשבותי מחשבותיכם.
2. Last thursdayism makes sense: המחדש בטובו בכל יום תמיד
3. If you can question why g-d would need the sacrifice ritual details, you can ask that about any observance. It undermines the entire idea of חוקים
4. Evolution leaves many things unanswered, most of all בריאה יש מאין, who cooked up the primordial soup?
5. I admittedly skimmed, but some of the statements in this thread (and I don't mean this attacking ly) seem to border on כפירה.
100% of Likes will be donated to support our brothers and sisters in Eretz Yisrael

Offline Achas Veachas

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 4399
  • Total likes: 114
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
    • Torah && Tech
Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #127 on: February 12, 2015, 12:42:09 PM »

2. Last thursdayism makes sense: המחדש בטובו בכל יום תמיד

To say it makes sense? More accurate would be that it's consistent with the Jewish Hashkafah....

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 30533
  • Total likes: 7829
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #128 on: February 12, 2015, 01:07:06 PM »
To say it makes sense? More accurate would be that it's consistent with the Jewish Hashkafah....

I'm saying not only do I agree, I think g-d created the world yesterday as well.
100% of Likes will be donated to support our brothers and sisters in Eretz Yisrael

Offline Redbull3

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 3492
  • Total likes: 417
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #129 on: February 12, 2015, 01:44:40 PM »
I'm saying not only do I agree, I think g-d created the world yesterday as well.

Wow that sounds radical. Do you believe in cause and effect? Like if I dropped an item and it falls to the floor is it because of a natural consequence of me dropping the thing, based on rules that God created and set into place and left alone with small exception, or was God constantly recreating the universe each split second with the item a little closer to the ground each time?

Offline Achas Veachas

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 4399
  • Total likes: 114
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
    • Torah && Tech
Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #130 on: February 12, 2015, 01:48:06 PM »
Wow that sounds radical. Do you believe in cause and effect? Like if I dropped an item and it falls to the floor is it because of a natural consequence of me dropping the thing, based on rules that God created and set into place and left alone with small exception, or was God constantly recreating the universe each split second with the item a little closer to the ground each time?
It's a well known (and, to beginners, mind-blowing) teaching of Chassidus. The laws of nature are in essence just miracles that happen with consistency...

For more info see Sha'ar hayichud Veha'emunah by the Ba'al Hatanya...

Offline Baruch

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 2604
  • Total likes: 335
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #131 on: February 12, 2015, 01:55:26 PM »
Wow that sounds radical. Do you believe in cause and effect? Like if I dropped an item and it falls to the floor is it because of a natural consequence of me dropping the thing, based on rules that God created and set into place and left alone with small exception, or was God constantly recreating the universe each split second with the item a little closer to the ground each time?
Radical? The Nefesh Hachaim is maarich on this (it ain't chasidic  ;) ). You say it in davening every day - המחדש בטובו בכל יום תמיד מעשה בראשית כאמור לעושה אורים גדוליםץ - it says עושה not עשה (oseh not asah).

Offline Achas Veachas

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 4399
  • Total likes: 114
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
    • Torah && Tech
Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #132 on: February 12, 2015, 02:04:23 PM »
Radical? The Nefesh Hachaim is maarich on this (it ain't chasidic  ;) ). You say it in davening every day - המחדש בטובו בכל יום תמיד מעשה בראשית כאמור לעושה אורים גדוליםץ - it says עושה not עשה (oseh not asah).
lol I didn't say it's an exclusively Chassidishe concept (it has it's source in Medrash Tehillim). Just that Chassidus is Ma'arich on it and that a lot of Chassidus is based on it...

Offline Redbull3

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 3492
  • Total likes: 417
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #133 on: February 12, 2015, 02:08:31 PM »
It's a well known (and, to beginners, mind-blowing) teaching of Chassidus. The laws of nature are in essence just miracles that happen with consistency...

For more info see Sha'ar hayichud Veha'emunah by the Ba'al Hatanya...
I am far from an expert but have heard of this as well as similar chassidish concepts from the B"SH"T that even a leaf falling on a bug is by divine decree?
Radical? The Nefesh Hachaim is maarich on this (it ain't chasidic  ;) ). You say it in davening every day - המחדש בטובו בכל יום תמיד מעשה בראשית כאמור לעושה אורים גדוליםץ - it says עושה not עשה (oseh not asah).
Maybe not the prayer, but that interpretation is certainly chasidic iinm...

I'm simply not into it as a way to make sense of life and glad I was brought up differently, but to each their own honestly. I do appreciate the different perspectives.

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 30533
  • Total likes: 7829
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #134 on: February 12, 2015, 02:22:39 PM »
I'll give you a radical perspective, it's my own but it's definitely inspired by my Chassidus studies:

Similar to how the Rambam says that x-ianity and islam were there to pave the way for Moshiach, I'd like to postulate that all beliefs (including Pastafarianism) have something we can take a lesson from in Avodas Hashem. Not saying Ch"v we should incorporate ideas from Aku"z/A"z, but מכל מלמדי השכלתי and כל מה שברא הקב״ה בעולמו וכו׳.
100% of Likes will be donated to support our brothers and sisters in Eretz Yisrael

Offline Redbull3

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 3492
  • Total likes: 417
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #135 on: February 12, 2015, 02:34:42 PM »
I'll give you a radical perspective, it's my own but it's definitely inspired by my Chassidus studies:

Similar to how the Rambam says that x-ianity and islam were there to pave the way for Moshiach, I'd like to postulate that all beliefs (including Pastafarianism) have something we can take a lesson from in Avodas Hashem. Not saying Ch"v we should incorporate ideas from Aku"z/A"z, but מכל מלמדי השכלתי and כל מה שברא הקב״ה בעולמו וכו׳.

Rambam himself held Greek philosophers in high esteem.
Interesting because I always thought chassidus was about the opposite, being isolated/sheltered from any outside influences. Isn't that the reason for the homogeneous garb/language/way of life?

Offline Baruch

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 2604
  • Total likes: 335
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #136 on: February 12, 2015, 02:45:20 PM »
I am far from an expert but have heard of this as well as similar chassidish concepts from the B"SH"T that even a leaf falling on a bug is by divine decree?

The leaf and the bug is Chassidic. The Gaon and his talmidim did not agree. That the world is constantly being created is a belief pretty well established across all streams of Judaism. I doubt if you'd ask your Rabbi he'd tell you differently. CMIIW.

Offline Achas Veachas

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 4399
  • Total likes: 114
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
    • Torah && Tech
Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #137 on: February 12, 2015, 02:47:36 PM »
The leaf and the bug is Chassidic. The Gaon and his talmidim did not agree. That the world is constantly being created is a belief pretty well established across all streams of Judaism. I doubt if you'd ask your Rabbi he'd tell you differently. CMIIW.
I find it hard to imagine the Modern Orthodox Rabbi in the Shul I Daven in will ay such a thing...

Offline jj1000

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 13470
  • Total likes: 6095
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 29367
    • View Profile
  • Location: The value of a forum such as this one is not in that one can post a question and receive an answer, but in that the question has most likely been asked before, and the answer is available to him that will but only use the search function.
  • Programs: 1. Search on google. 2. Search in the right board of DDF with a general word or two. 3. Read the wiki. 4. Read the thread. 5. Ask away.
Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #138 on: February 12, 2015, 02:52:44 PM »
Rambam himself held Greek philosophers in high esteem.
Interesting because I always thought chassidus was about the opposite, being isolated/sheltered from any outside influences. Isn't that the reason for the homogeneous garb/language/way of life?
There is Chabad and there is everyone else.
See my 5 step program to your left <--

(Real signature under my location)

Offline Sport

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 2332
  • Total likes: 103
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #139 on: February 12, 2015, 03:06:06 PM »
I'll give you a radical perspective, it's my own but it's definitely inspired by my Chassidus studies:

Similar to how the Rambam says that x-ianity and islam were there to pave the way for Moshiach, I'd like to postulate that all beliefs (including Pastafarianism) have something we can take a lesson from in Avodas Hashem. Not saying Ch"v we should incorporate ideas from Aku"z/A"z, but מכל מלמדי השכלתי and כל מה שברא הקב״ה בעולמו וכו׳.
Doesn't sound radical to me.