Evolution and the age of the universe

[AsherO]

Again,  I stress that ties quest in is posed from a given that what we see was created in that way as old.

 

Please explain?

[noturbizniss]

Please explain?

The world was created looking old with light waves on the way and ice cores with 100,000 years of ice layers in them.

[Achas Veachas]

To further refute him, I am learning alot about the various ways of learning the explanations of bereishis and it is very enlightening.
I do have a question. If we are to follow the generally accepted idea of creation ex nihilo, is it then against the Torah to say given that the world is 5778 years old,hkbh did put is in a world that was created with all the physical properties of one that is 6 orders of magnitude older therefore I want to learn what the story (read that in the literary since - not a true accounting) behind the creation is.
If we are not supposed to or allowed to do that, what reasons are given?
Again,  I stress that this question is posed from a given that what we see was created in that way as old.

Not sure I understand the question.

Are you asking if we're allowed to study geology, astronomy, cosmology etc where were basically studying the world as an ancient world if we believe the reality is different?

[AsherO]

The world was created looking old with light waves on the way and ice cores with 100,000 years of ice layers in them.

Why not?

We all agree that the account of creation says Hashem created trees, those trees were ostensibly fully grown (otherwise it should've said he created seeds or saplings or something), why is the polar ice cap any different?

[jj1000]

Are you asking if we're allowed to study geology, astronomy, cosmology etc where were basically studying the world as an ancient world if we believe the reality is different?

I think so. And I think the answer is you can study modern science just know it is not what the Torah says. We believe it all came into being with a few words. (Assuming you learn it literal)

[Achas Veachas]

I think so. And I think the answer is you can study modern science just know it is not what the Torah says. We believe it all came into being with a few words. (Assuming you learn it literal)

If that is what his question was then I have what to add, it ties into another post I wanted to make about the "deceitful G-D" argument that I didn't end up typing up because the conversation went in a different direction. I hope I'll have time today to write it up, if not it'll have to wait till after Shabbos (if the conversation doesn't drag us elsewhere).

[Menachem613]

I think someone mentioned R. Eliyahu Dessler (Michtav Me’Eliyahu), here are a few pages on topic.

[Menachem613]

Does anyone have a link to Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan's essay on Age of the Universe ?

[Achas Veachas]

Does anyone have a link to Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan's essay on Age of the Universe ?

This?

First result when you Google "Rabbi Aryeh KaplanAge of the Universe"

[AsherO]

I think someone mentioned R. Eliyahu Dessler (Michtav Me’Eliyahu), here are a few pages on topic.

This?

IS there a tl;dr version?

[Achas Veachas]

IS there a tl;dr version?

lol my thoughts too. I printed it to read over Shabbos.

[AsherO]

lol my thoughts too. I printed it to read over Shabbos.

Great, so now I don't have to 

Looking forward to your summary

[eAge]

Disclaimer: I did not read through this thread (yet!), but based on the threads title, this debate should answer lots of questions/myths, enjoy.

http://www.torahanytime.com/video/a-debate-with-skeptic-barami-hakakian/

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Disclaimer: I did not read through this thread (yet!), but based on the threads title, this debate should answer lots of questions/myths, enjoy.

http://www.torahanytime.com/video/a-debate-with-skeptic-barami-hakakian/

When and who wrote the Torah? Is all Judaism in agreement about this?

[Boruch999]

When and who wrote the Torah? Is all Judaism in agreement about this?

I suppose it depends on how broad your definition of Judaism is.  Reform Judaism is not, for one.  Zev Farber, Crown Jewel of Open Orthodoxy is another.

[Achas Veachas]

IS there a tl;dr version?

In short, he found a source in Kabballah that says the world is 15 Billion years old (he specifically didn't get into the question of evolution, only the age of the universe).

Now if someone can give me a tl;dr version of:

Disclaimer: I did not read through this thread (yet!), but based on the threads title, this debate should answer lots of questions/myths, enjoy.

http://www.torahanytime.com/video/a-debate-with-skeptic-barami-hakakian/

[AsherO]

In short, he found a source in Kabballah that says the world is 15 Billion years old (he specifically didn't get into the question of evolution, only the age of the universe).

Now if someone can give me a tl;dr version of:

Do you mean tl;dw?

What' she source in Kabbalah? מהלך תק שנה?

[Achas Veachas]

No (ת"ק שנה is a Gemara ).

He brings the Sefer Hatmunah that says the world will be seven Shmitos, each one lasting 7000 years and we are in the 6th one now. Rabbi Kaplan then says that those years should be counted in Hashem's years which are a thousand years per day so each year is 365,250 human years. If you do the math it should come out to 15 billion.

[AsherO]

Maybe OT, but how do you guys make sense of בונה עולמות ומחריבן?

Also, am I the only one who thinks שבירת הכלים reminds me of the Big Bang?

[Achas Veachas]

Maybe OT, but how do you guys make sense of בונה עולמות ומחריבן?

Rabbi Kaplan mentions that though he acknowledges that it's usually understood in a spiritual sense.

Also, am I the only one who thinks שבירת הכלים reminds me of the Big Bang?

Perhaps superficially. Personally I think the קו בקע הצמצום reminds me of it more but then again we are dealing with a completely different plane of existence...