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Creation vs. Evolution

Creation

  • Evolutionary theory rests on precepts set out by old, obsolete book written over a hundred years ago
  • Scientifically corroborated by numerous peer-reviewed Facebook posts
  • Banana flawlessly designed for use as fake phone
  • Bible verses about molecular mutation and generational metamorphosis in allele frequencies clearly allegorical
  • Nine electoral votes in Alabama
  • Results of natural selection experiments have only been reproduced a few thousand times in a laboratory
  • Archaeopteryx way too awesome to have evolved into shitty birds of today
  • Far easier to understand than evolution


Evolution

  • Personal feud with God
  • Saw frog evolve from pollywog
  • Distinct morphological similarities between ancient Neanderthal and Trent
  • Nice to think we actually distantly related to family dog
  • Want to see how much more upright next figure in evolutionary chart will be standing
  • That one Star Trek: Voyager episode where helmsman Tom Paris goes through rapid evolution
  • Dazzling oratorical genius of Clarence Darrow
  • Universe was created out of nothing billions of years ago, which you’ll just have to trust us on

Source: The Onion

Author Topic: Evolution and the age of the universe  (Read 49357 times)

Offline wayfe

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #200 on: February 15, 2015, 12:56:46 AM »
Once you realize that even science sets its own axioms and is quite limited- you can happily be just as enlightened and rational a human being for choosing to believe in G-d and the literal interpretation of His Torah with no need for any apologetic theories.

Found this on a different forum:

Quote
The Atlantic had an article a few months http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/12/why-god-will-not-die/382231

The author basically expands on this premise, that the more science discovers the more we see that we don't know. Believing in science is acknowledged today by many thinkers as just as much a belief as religion, another way to make sense of the temporary nature of our existence and a way to find meaning in the vast universe.

(Of course, the author left religion when he was young, but his point is basically, hey religion is not stupid, and scientists may be the biggest blind believers of all. We should acknowledge the value religion provides in answering existential questions in a meaningful way to many, even if for a particular atheist it doesn't.)

I was especially struck by his statement that most people do not understand all that is understood by science today, they rely on the understanding of other greater minds who do. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

That being said, isn't the number currently stated as the age of the universe (and I was under the impression that each field of science had it's own number...) based on extrapolation which therefore cannot be stated as 100% fact?

ETA: Oh and a new theory now that the world has always existed
 http://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html

And here we'll go again...

Science is not set in stone. It is a human construct and is, by definition, limited.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 01:19:05 AM by wayfe »
"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers which can't be questioned."
— Richard Feynman

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #201 on: February 15, 2015, 02:29:20 PM »
Once you realize that even science sets its own axioms and is quite limited- you can happily be just as enlightened and rational a human being for choosing to believe in G-d and the literal interpretation of His Torah with no need for any apologetic theories.

That is basically the approach of the Lubavitcher Rebbe (not last Thursdayism like someone mentioned before, that was just mentioned by him in passing).

Science and Torah operate on 2 different planes. Torah deals with absolutes, where the creator tells us how things are, while science is a human construct, where, based on the evidence and the data we have so far so-and-so is the theory that makes the most sense.

The Rebbe's approach can be summarized as follows (to see it more in depth see the book "Mind over Matter" jj1000 linked to earlier):

1) Instead of bemoaning the "conflict" between science and Torah let's look at what science actually says and, more importantly, with how much conviction science (as opposed to scientists) actually says it.

2) As mentioned before, Torah deals with absolutes while science offers the hypothesis that makes the most sense given the data we have.

3) There is a great difference between the certainties in empirical sciences (like chemistry and medicine), that deals with things we have direct access to and can be tested in the lab, and observational sciences (like astronomy), that deal with things we can only observe yet we can't test and experiment. On the third level (the one with the lowest level of certainty) are the speculative sciences that deal with things that are so far removed from us (either by vast space or by vast time-frames) that we can not observe them directly and only infer them from their effects.

4a) In the speculative sciences there is a big difference in how we infer things. There are 2 main methods interpolating (where we have data for 2 points and try to infer what would happen in a point in between) and extrapolating (where we have data for 2 points and try to infer what would happen at a point beyond those 2).

4b) Between the 2, obviously hypotheses inferred by interpolating have a higher level of certainty then by extrapolating (if I know how water behaves at 1 degree Celsius and at 99 degrees I would assume that at 100 degrees it would just be more of the same, not realizing that there's a phase transition at 100 degrees where the properties of the water change DRASTICALLY).

4c) When extrapolating, obviously, the farther you get from observable data the less reliable your observations get (if your data set goes from 0-100, extrapolating to 101 will be a lot more reliable than extrapolating to 200, 1,000, 10,000 etc.).

4d) Extrapolating from cause to effect is inherently more reliable than extrapolating from effect to cause (the equation 1+1 can have only one outcome, 3, but if I give you the number 3 and ask you how did I reach it there are in infinite number of paths I could have used to get there (1+2, 2+1, 1*3, 9/3, 6/2........)).

5) All the above applies even if all the external factors remain the same, put in different variables and things can change dramatically and often-times unpredictably (ask a chemist how long it would take milk to separate into whey and curds the answer would be a a few weeks, put in some enzymes and the process is reduced to mere seconds).

6) Based on all the above we can easily see that the theories about the age of the universe are amongst the ones that have the smallest level of certainty. Even science will agree that we are dealing with events that happened in the far distant past, under very different conditions with a very limited data set (~150 years of direct observation and a fossil record that can at best be called spotty).

7) The point of all of the above was NOT to say that "scientists don't know what they are talking about" (or worse that "scientists are phonies" like others will say), scientists are doing the best they can under the circumstances. The point of it all is just to point out the INHERENT weakness of these theories and that, although they may be the best and finest that modern science has to offer, they are still not strong enough to use as a basis for changing the meaning of Pesukim in the Torah.

ETA: wow that came out way longer than I expected... :P

Offline Emkay

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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #203 on: February 26, 2015, 07:09:46 AM »

Offline Menachem613

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Offline Emkay

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #205 on: February 26, 2015, 07:25:02 AM »
Please keep this thread civil.
This is civil.  You should hear me in person.

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #206 on: February 26, 2015, 07:33:20 AM »
Quote
New theory could prove how life began and disprove God

The headline sets the tone for the whole article.  Theories by definition are unproven and,therefore, can't prove anything.

But the addled mind that can come up with that gem, will have no problem with this one:

Quote
You start with a random clump of atoms, and if you shine light on it for long enough, it should not be so surprising that you get a plant,” England said.

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #207 on: February 26, 2015, 07:46:45 AM »

The headline sets the tone for the whole article.  Theories by definition are unproven and,therefore, can't prove anything.

But the addled mind that can come up with that gem, will have no problem with this one:

What's wrong with Emunah P'shutah?

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #208 on: February 26, 2015, 07:48:05 AM »

Offline noturbizniss

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #209 on: February 26, 2015, 09:45:33 AM »
The problem is that it does not disprove the existence of God. It may argue against the need for a god, but definitely does not disprove it. Add to this that it is through Richard Dawkins's site or paper and the whole thing reeks of bias. Dakins is a notoriously vehement anti-god atheist. He is the atheist equivalent of a religous nutjob. His atheism is as ingrained in his mind as anti-vaxxers are with their beliefs and as closed-minded as creationists in Kentucky.
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Offline noturbizniss

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #210 on: February 26, 2015, 09:52:16 AM »

2. There is a reason it is called a law of gravity.
The headline sets the tone for the whole article.  Theories by definition are unproven and,therefore, can't prove anything.

But the addled mind that can come up with that gem, will have no problem with this one:

been meaning to comment on the concept of theories in science -
http://www.notjustatheory.com/
It's a 2 minute read, and the jist of it is:
"When scientists use the word theory, it has a different meaning to normal everyday use."
"In science, a theory is not a guess, not a hunch. It's a well-substantiated, well-supported, well-documented explanation for our observations."
". A theory never becomes a law. In fact, if there was a hierarchy of science, theories would be higher than laws. There is nothing higher, or better, than a theory. Laws describe things, theories explain them. An example will help you to understand this. There's a law of gravity, which is the description of gravity. It basically says that if you let go of something it'll fall. It doesn't say why. Then there's the theory of gravity, which is an attempt to explain why. Actually, Newton's Theory of Gravity did a pretty good job, but Einstein's Theory of Relativity does a better job of explaining it. These explanations are called theories, and will always be theories. They can't be changed into laws, because laws are different things. Laws describe, and theories explain."

Not to say that the theory in the above article is necessarily on the same level of confirmation as Newton's or Einsteins theories of gravity
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Offline Menachem613

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #211 on: February 26, 2015, 09:55:47 AM »

The problem is that it does not disprove the existence of God. It may argue against the need for a god, but definitely does not disprove it. Add to this that it is through Richard Dawkins's site or paper and the whole thing reeks of bias. Dakins is a notoriously vehement anti-god atheist. He is the atheist equivalent of a religous nutjob. His atheism is as ingrained in his mind as anti-vaxxers are with their beliefs and as closed-minded as creationists in Kentucky.

I believe it addresses the God of the Gaps issue.

Offline noturbizniss

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #212 on: February 26, 2015, 09:59:04 AM »
I believe it addresses the God of the Gaps issue.
Agreed, however it is not a disproof of God, but of the theory of "God of the Gaps".
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Offline Menachem613

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #213 on: February 26, 2015, 10:06:52 AM »

Agreed, however it is not a disproof of God, but of the theory of "God of the Gaps".

Agree.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #214 on: February 26, 2015, 10:51:05 AM »
Agreed, however it is not a disproof of God, but of the theory of "God of the Gaps".
It doesn't disprove the "G-D of the gaps". The more science learns the more questions there will be and the more gaps to fill...

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #215 on: February 26, 2015, 10:53:50 AM »

It doesn't disprove the "G-D of the gaps". The more science learns the more questions there will be and the more gaps to fill...

How so?

Offline noturbizniss

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #216 on: February 26, 2015, 10:55:45 AM »
It disproves the need for a god as the spark to begin life
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Offline Boruch999

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #217 on: February 26, 2015, 11:00:50 AM »
been meaning to comment on the concept of theories in science -
http://www.notjustatheory.com/
It's a 2 minute read, and the jist of it is:
"When scientists use the word theory, it has a different meaning to normal everyday use."
"In science, a theory is not a guess, not a hunch. It's a well-substantiated, well-supported, well-documented explanation for our observations."
". A theory never becomes a law. In fact, if there was a hierarchy of science, theories would be higher than laws. There is nothing higher, or better, than a theory. Laws describe things, theories explain them. An example will help you to understand this. There's a law of gravity, which is the description of gravity. It basically says that if you let go of something it'll fall. It doesn't say why. Then there's the theory of gravity, which is an attempt to explain why. Actually, Newton's Theory of Gravity did a pretty good job, but Einstein's Theory of Relativity does a better job of explaining it. These explanations are called theories, and will always be theories. They can't be changed into laws, because laws are different things. Laws describe, and theories explain."

Not to say that the theory in the above article is necessarily on the same level of confirmation as Newton's or Einsteins theories of gravity


Correct.  The primary difference between them is the prediction of the Theory of Gravity is repeatedly demonstrable to be true.  Anyone can observe it countless times a day.  No one has ever observed evolution.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #218 on: February 26, 2015, 11:02:59 AM »
It disproves the need for a god as the spark to begin life
So they plugged one gap, those who like the G-D of the gaps line of reasoning will never run out of gaps...

Offline noturbizniss

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #219 on: February 26, 2015, 11:14:44 AM »

Correct.  The primary difference between them is the prediction of the Theory of Gravity is repeatedly demonstrable to be true.  Anyone can observe it countless times a day.  No one has ever observed evolution.
Observing gravity does not confirm or deny the theory. It is observing predictions of the theroy that confirms it. It is observing things like the perihelion of mercury that confirms it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity#Perihelion_precession_of_Mercury

As far as your second statement, that is blatantly untrue. 

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html

"The origin of new species by evolution has also been observed, both in the laboratory and in the wild. See, for example, (Weinberg, J.R., V.R. Starczak, and D. Jorg, 1992, "Evidence for rapid speciation following a founder event in the laboratory." Evolution 46: 1214-1220). The "Observed Instances of Speciation" FAQ in the talk.origins archives gives several additional examples.

Even without these direct observations, it would be wrong to say that evolution hasn't been observed. Evidence isn't limited to seeing something happen before your eyes. Evolution makes predictions about what we would expect to see in the fossil record, comparative anatomy, genetic sequences, geographical distribution of species, etc., and these predictions have been verified many times over. The number of observations supporting evolution is overwhelming."

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/2011/12/18/evolution-watching-speciation-occur-observations/

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/misconceptions_faq.php#e1
" In organisms with short generation times (e.g., bacteria or fruit flies), we can actually observe evolution in action over the course of an experiment. And in some cases, biologists have observed evolution occurring in the wild. "

"MISCONCEPTION: Evolution is ‘just' a theory.

CORRECTION: This misconception stems from a mix-up between casual and scientific use of the word theory. In everyday language, theory is often used to mean a hunch with little evidential support. Scientific theories, on the other hand, are broad explanations for a wide range of phenomena. In order to be accepted by the scientific community, a theory must be strongly supported by many different lines of evidence. Evolution is a well-supported and broadly accepted scientific theory; it is not ‘just' a hunch. To learn more about the nature of scientific theories, visit the Understanding Science website."
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