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Creation vs. Evolution

Creation

  • Evolutionary theory rests on precepts set out by old, obsolete book written over a hundred years ago
  • Scientifically corroborated by numerous peer-reviewed Facebook posts
  • Banana flawlessly designed for use as fake phone
  • Bible verses about molecular mutation and generational metamorphosis in allele frequencies clearly allegorical
  • Nine electoral votes in Alabama
  • Results of natural selection experiments have only been reproduced a few thousand times in a laboratory
  • Archaeopteryx way too awesome to have evolved into shitty birds of today
  • Far easier to understand than evolution


Evolution

  • Personal feud with God
  • Saw frog evolve from pollywog
  • Distinct morphological similarities between ancient Neanderthal and Trent
  • Nice to think we actually distantly related to family dog
  • Want to see how much more upright next figure in evolutionary chart will be standing
  • That one Star Trek: Voyager episode where helmsman Tom Paris goes through rapid evolution
  • Dazzling oratorical genius of Clarence Darrow
  • Universe was created out of nothing billions of years ago, which you’ll just have to trust us on

Source: The Onion

Author Topic: Evolution and the age of the universe  (Read 49241 times)

Offline noturbizniss

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #240 on: February 26, 2015, 02:41:02 PM »
150 years doesn't seem like enough time for macro evolution.
-1

Obviously no one actually clicked through to the scientific American link I posted, or you would have seen this:


Critics of evolution often fall back on the maxim that no one has ever seen one species split into two. While that’s clearly a straw man, because most speciation takes far longer than our lifespan to occur, it’s also not true. We have seen species split, and we continue to see species diverging every day.

For example, there were the two new species of American goatsbeards (or salsifies, genus Tragopogon) that sprung into existence in the past century. In the early 1900s, three species of these wildflowers – the western salsify (T. dubius), the meadow salsify (T. pratensis), and the oyster plant (T. porrifolius) – were introduced to the United States from Europe. As their populations expanded, the species interacted, often producing sterile hybrids. But by the 1950s, scientists realized that there were two new variations of goatsbeard growing. While they looked like hybrids, they weren’t sterile. They were perfectly capable of reproducing with their own kind but not with any of the original three species – the classic definition of a new species.

How did this happen? It turns out that the parental plants made mistakes when they created their gametes (analogous to our sperm and eggs). Instead of making gametes with only one copy of each chromosome, they created ones with two or more, a state called polyploidy. Two polyploid gametes from different species, each with double the genetic information they were supposed to have, fused, and created a tetraploid: an creature with 4 sets of chromosomes. Because of the difference in chromosome number, the tetrapoid couldn’t mate with either of its parent species, but it wasn’t prevented from reproducing with fellow accidents.

This process, known as Hybrid Speciation, has been documented a number of times in different plants. But plants aren’t the only ones speciating through hybridization: Heliconius butterflies, too, have split in a similar way.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #241 on: February 26, 2015, 02:55:37 PM »
All of these side arguments are so pointless.

Do you want to believe in the G-d of the bible, Or the God of science.

Or you can choose both if you feel you need to justify why Hashem does what he does.
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Offline Boruch999

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #242 on: February 26, 2015, 04:22:41 PM »
-1

Obviously no one actually clicked through to the scientific American link I posted, or you would have seen this:



I didn't bother because I know that for every something like that, there is something like this:

Talk Origins  - deceptive example of "speciation"

The following example of speciation appears on the Talk Origins website:

    "Three species of wildflowers called goatsbeards were introduced to the United States from Europe shortly after the turn of the century. Within a few decades their populations expanded and began to encounter one another in the American West. Whenever mixed populations occurred, the specied interbred (hybridizing) producing sterile hybrid offspring. Suddenly, in the late forties two new species of goatsbeard appeared near Pullman, Washington. Although the new species were similar in appearance to the hybrids, they produced fertile offspring. The evolutionary process had created a separate species that could reproduce but not mate with the goatsbeard plants from which it had evolved."1

From the description, one would think that this was a very convincing example of macroevolution in action. Obviously, there must have been quite a number of massive mutations to produce an entirely new species that could not interbreed with the original. Right? Actually, every statement above is absolutely true. However, some of the important details have been intentionally left out, in order to make this example sound much better than it really is. Here is what actually happened.

The example above is not macroevolution, but is simply due to a single genetic event known as polyploidy. The original goatsbeards from Europe were standard diploid (two copies of each chromosome) plants. However, plants often do not undergo complete monoploidy during meiosis (during the formation of the sex cells, or gametes). This means that the gametes may remain diploid. When diploid gametes fuse, a new polyploid "species" is formed. No new information is created (Do you have twice as much information if you copy one book to produce an identical copy? No!), but the chromosomes are duplicated. The new "species" cannot produce viable offspring with the original species simply because of the difference in number of chromosomes.  With goatsbeards, the process has happened more than once. Of course, the two "new" species have the same number of chromosomes and can produce viable offspring, since they are virtually identical.

If you look at the speciation events that are listed as evidence of evolution, most of them will fall into the polyploidy plant category. Evolutionists often "forget" to tell the reader that the new "species" are unable to produce viable offspring with the parental species simply because of a chromosomal duplication event. A casual oversight on the part of the writers? I think not! How much new information added to the new species? None!!! Were you deceived into thinking that the example given above was a dramatic example of evolution in action? Be wary of evolutionists bearing examples of "speciation."
(Source)

Bottom line for me,  again, is that this is a small phenomenon seized upon by evolutionist as evidence of evolution, when in reality it is just evidence of a small phenomenon.  In this case, no number of successive chromosome doubling is going to turn a plant into a fish (or anything other than an identical plant with more chromosomes.) Or maybe it will. And maybe there are elephants living in caves on the dark side of the moon.  I have no evidence to the contrary. 
 
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 04:26:46 PM by Boruch999 »

Offline noturbizniss

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #243 on: February 26, 2015, 05:47:51 PM »


I didn't bother because I know that for every something like that, there is something like this:

Talk Origins  - deceptive example of "speciation"

The following example of speciation appears on the Talk Origins website:

    "Three species of wildflowers called goatsbeards were introduced to the United States from Europe shortly after the turn of the century. Within a few decades their populations expanded and began to encounter one another in the American West. Whenever mixed populations occurred, the specied interbred (hybridizing) producing sterile hybrid offspring. Suddenly, in the late forties two new species of goatsbeard appeared near Pullman, Washington. Although the new species were similar in appearance to the hybrids, they produced fertile offspring. The evolutionary process had created a separate species that could reproduce but not mate with the goatsbeard plants from which it had evolved."1

From the description, one would think that this was a very convincing example of macroevolution in action. Obviously, there must have been quite a number of massive mutations to produce an entirely new species that could not interbreed with the original. Right? Actually, every statement above is absolutely true. However, some of the important details have been intentionally left out, in order to make this example sound much better than it really is. Here is what actually happened.

The example above is not macroevolution, but is simply due to a single genetic event known as polyploidy. The original goatsbeards from Europe were standard diploid (two copies of each chromosome) plants. However, plants often do not undergo complete monoploidy during meiosis (during the formation of the sex cells, or gametes). This means that the gametes may remain diploid. When diploid gametes fuse, a new polyploid "species" is formed. No new information is created (Do you have twice as much information if you copy one book to produce an identical copy? No!), but the chromosomes are duplicated. The new "species" cannot produce viable offspring with the original species simply because of the difference in number of chromosomes.  With goatsbeards, the process has happened more than once. Of course, the two "new" species have the same number of chromosomes and can produce viable offspring, since they are virtually identical.

If you look at the speciation events that are listed as evidence of evolution, most of them will fall into the polyploidy plant category. Evolutionists often "forget" to tell the reader that the new "species" are unable to produce viable offspring with the parental species simply because of a chromosomal duplication event. A casual oversight on the part of the writers? I think not! How much new information added to the new species? None!!! Were you deceived into thinking that the example given above was a dramatic example of evolution in action? Be wary of evolutionists bearing examples of "speciation."
(Source)

Bottom line for me,  again, is that this is a small phenomenon seized upon by evolutionist as evidence of evolution, when in reality it is just evidence of a small phenomenon.  In this case, no number of successive chromosome doubling is going to turn a plant into a fish (or anything other than an identical plant with more chromosomes.) Or maybe it will. And maybe there are elephants living in caves on the dark side of the moon.  I have no evidence to the contrary.

If this little thing can happen in 50 years, then imagine what can happen in 50 million.

What bothers me from your tone and answers is that you deem to feel there is no way at all that evolution can have happened, and that is kind of narrow minded. If I miss misunderstood you then I apologize.
READ THE DARN WIKI!!!!

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #244 on: February 26, 2015, 06:04:54 PM »

If this little thing can happen in 50 years, then imagine what can happen in 50 million.

What bothers me from your tone and answers is that you deem to feel there is no way at all that evolution can have happened, and that is kind of narrow minded. If I miss misunderstood you then I apologize.
that would still be relegated to imagination though
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline noturbizniss

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #245 on: February 26, 2015, 06:13:20 PM »
that would still be relegated to imagination though
Care to clarify what exactly you are referring to? In a civil manner and without insulting or attempting to insult anyone?
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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #246 on: February 26, 2015, 06:34:03 PM »

If this little thing can happen in 50 years, then imagine what can happen in 50 million.


that would still be relegated to imagination though
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline noturbizniss

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #247 on: February 26, 2015, 06:43:23 PM »

No, that hypothesising and extrapolating. If this thing can happen why can't more extreme happen? Do you need observable proof to belive it
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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #248 on: February 26, 2015, 06:47:39 PM »
That depends if the hypothesis is that it can happen or that it did happen
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #249 on: February 26, 2015, 07:07:08 PM »

If this little thing can happen in 50 years, then imagine what can happen in 50 million.

What bothers me from your tone and answers is that you deem to feel there is no way at all that evolution can have happened, and that is kind of narrow minded. If I miss misunderstood you then I apologize.

I feel that evolution is at least as likely to have not occurred as it is to have occurred.  I believe that most, if not all, that is presented as  evidence for evolution is  grossly inadequate.  I believe that the Torah is the only source of unquestionable truth in this world.  The simple reading of the Torah seems to contradict the main premises of the Theory of Evolution.  I believe that interpretation of the Torah in any way other than it's simple meaning other than through the rules of Torah sheba'al peh  requires just cause.  I don't believe any of the evidence for evolution provides such.  I therefore believe that it is extremely far fetched to say that evolution occurred.  If that is narrow minded then I am unabashedly narrow minded, no need to apologize.

I only hope I can get you to agree that it mine is a reasonable position.

Offline noturbizniss

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #250 on: February 26, 2015, 07:27:12 PM »
I feel that evolution is... likely to have  occurred...  I believe... all... evidence for evolution...   I believe that the Torah is the... premises of the Theory of Evolution...
Well said!

I movie poster critic quoted you!
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Offline Menachem613

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #251 on: February 26, 2015, 07:33:56 PM »

I feel that evolution is at least as likely to have not occurred as it is to have occurred.  I believe that most, if not all, that is presented as  evidence for evolution is  grossly inadequate.  I believe that the Torah is the only source of unquestionable truth in this world.  The simple reading of the Torah seems to contradict the main premises of the Theory of Evolution.  I believe that interpretation of the Torah in any way other than it's simple meaning other than through the rules of Torah sheba'al peh  requires just cause.  I don't believe any of the evidence for evolution provides such.  I therefore believe that it is extremely far fetched to say that evolution occurred.  If that is narrow minded then I am unabashedly narrow minded, no need to apologize.

I only hope I can get you to agree that it mine is a reasonable position.

If evolution was proven to your satisfaction to have occurred, how would you reconcile that with your current beliefs?

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #252 on: February 26, 2015, 07:51:30 PM »
I'd run away and join the elephants in the caves on the dark side of the moon :)

I don't think it's likely to happen, so I don't worry about it.  Like I don't worry about a tsunami crashing down on my head.

But if I were to worry about it, a starting point might be

  I believe that interpretation of the Torah in any way other than it's simple meaning other than through the rules of Torah sheba'al peh  requires just cause
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 07:56:10 PM by Boruch999 »

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #253 on: February 26, 2015, 07:52:11 PM »
Well said!

I movie poster critic quoted you!

I'll take that as a compliment :)

(thanks for including the ....)

Offline noturbizniss

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #254 on: February 26, 2015, 07:54:12 PM »
I'll take that as a compliment :)

(thanks for including the ....)
Gotta keep it legal
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #255 on: February 26, 2015, 11:23:47 PM »
If evolution was proven to your satisfaction to have occurred, how would you reconcile that with your current beliefs?
This is why these arguments are so pointless
All of these side arguments are so pointless.

Do you want to believe in the G-d of the bible, Or the God of science.

Or you can choose both if you feel you need to justify why Hashem does what he does.

So trees grow a ring a year and carbon breaks down at a specific rate, and if there is a new species on earth so, who what? You either choose one of the three G-ds to believe in.
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Offline steeeveknowsbest

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #256 on: March 11, 2015, 01:42:36 AM »
I'm upset enough at myself as it is for wasting more than an hour reading this thread.
So i'll try not to get totally sucked in.

For many years i have been researching this topic. I have a typical "yeshivishe" hashkafic view on all this. But i am well read and very knowledgeable of current science that pertains to this discussion. I am untroubled by said science, i certainly don't have all the answers buti do have enough to know that there are no questions here that are compelling enough to be disruptive to my faith and belief.

I didn't find one piece of information in this thread new or novel, but i did notice many points which are simply mistaken or easily explained.

I want to suggest two books which cover this entire topic thoroughly although obviously not conclusively

Darwin's Black Box by Michael J. Behe ( a very compelling informative read into the scientific implausibility of evolution stemming from microbiology)

Torah, Chazal and Science by Rabbi Moshe Meiselman ( i thorough systematic book that address all the questions and arguments in this thread from both a clear torah perspective as well as knowledgable current scientific perspective.)
 While i found some of his conclusions iffy and his writing style to be annoyingly arrogant and i certainly don't agree with everything he says, i think that this book provides the reader with the greatest comprehensive source of info on this topic currently available.


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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #257 on: March 11, 2015, 09:27:04 AM »

I'm upset enough at myself as it is for wasting more than an hour reading this thread.
So i'll try not to get totally sucked in.

For many years i have been researching this topic. I have a typical "yeshivishe" hashkafic view on all this. But i am well read and very knowledgeable of current science that pertains to this discussion. I am untroubled by said science, i certainly don't have all the answers buti do have enough to know that there are no questions here that are compelling enough to be disruptive to my faith and belief.

I didn't find one piece of information in this thread new or novel, but i did notice many points which are simply mistaken or easily explained.

I want to suggest two books which cover this entire topic thoroughly although obviously not conclusively

Darwin's Black Box by Michael J. Behe ( a very compelling informative read into the scientific implausibility of evolution stemming from microbiology)

Torah, Chazal and Science by Rabbi Moshe Meiselman ( i thorough systematic book that address all the questions and arguments in this thread from both a clear torah perspective as well as knowledgable current scientific perspective.)
 While i found some of his conclusions iffy and his writing style to be annoyingly arrogant and i certainly don't agree with everything he says, i think that this book provides the reader with the greatest comprehensive source of info on this topic currently available.

Have you read the critiques on meiselmans book?

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #258 on: March 11, 2015, 09:39:51 AM »
This is why these arguments are so pointless
So trees grow a ring a year and carbon breaks down at a specific rate, and if there is a new species on earth so, who what? You either choose one of the three G-ds to believe in.
What if that rate wasn't constant throughout the course of time?  It would certainly shake things up.
I believe Hashem created dead matter in sheshes yimei beraishis- how else could mushrooms and certain bacteria feed?  So he could certainly have created 'fossil fuels' and diamonds with that decaying dead matter.
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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #259 on: March 11, 2015, 10:53:03 AM »
Have you read the critiques on meiselmans book?
I have not, but i could easily write my own critique on it. It is far from perfect, but  that doesn't in any way mitigate it's value.

If you have a specific review you think would be enlightening please share, but generally i fight reviews of this sort to be skewed by emotion and immature.

Thank God i have brain and i use it to process the information myself.