Topic Wiki

Creation vs. Evolution

Creation

  • Evolutionary theory rests on precepts set out by old, obsolete book written over a hundred years ago
  • Scientifically corroborated by numerous peer-reviewed Facebook posts
  • Banana flawlessly designed for use as fake phone
  • Bible verses about molecular mutation and generational metamorphosis in allele frequencies clearly allegorical
  • Nine electoral votes in Alabama
  • Results of natural selection experiments have only been reproduced a few thousand times in a laboratory
  • Archaeopteryx way too awesome to have evolved into shitty birds of today
  • Far easier to understand than evolution


Evolution

  • Personal feud with God
  • Saw frog evolve from pollywog
  • Distinct morphological similarities between ancient Neanderthal and Trent
  • Nice to think we actually distantly related to family dog
  • Want to see how much more upright next figure in evolutionary chart will be standing
  • That one Star Trek: Voyager episode where helmsman Tom Paris goes through rapid evolution
  • Dazzling oratorical genius of Clarence Darrow
  • Universe was created out of nothing billions of years ago, which you’ll just have to trust us on

Source: The Onion

Author Topic: Evolution and the age of the universe  (Read 16917 times)

Offline Emkay

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2015, 04:49:41 AM »
I find it disgusting that someone would purposely start a thread just to reach popcorn status.
Truly terrible

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #61 on: February 12, 2015, 06:21:45 AM »
If your a Jewish agnostic
They are not even sure G-d exists so we can leave them out.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline Emkay

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #62 on: February 12, 2015, 06:25:37 AM »
Big bang is not belief.
http://gizmodo.com/astronomers-discover-first-direct-proof-of-the-big-bang-1545525927
while i am more or less staying out of this debate as no good usually comes out these online religious arguments and things get misconstrued, i do want to point out that online articles do not possess even a morsel of proof to any side but once you started maybe check this out, it helps to keep up to date on your arguments.
from maybe not
http://phys.org/news/2014-06-big-breakthrough-team-wrong.html
to total backtrack
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/achenblog/wp/2015/01/30/planck-flings-dust-at-bicep2-no-discovery-of-gravitational-waves-from-the-big-bang/

Offline jj1000

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2015, 07:54:20 AM »
while i am more or less staying out of this debate as no good usually comes out these online religious arguments and things get misconstrued, i do want to point out that online articles do not possess even a morsel of proof to any side but once you started maybe check this out, it helps to keep up to date on your arguments.
from maybe not
http://phys.org/news/2014-06-big-breakthrough-team-wrong.html
to total backtrack
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/achenblog/wp/2015/01/30/planck-flings-dust-at-bicep2-no-discovery-of-gravitational-waves-from-the-big-bang/
Gosh I love the internets.

But if someone thinks the existence of the big bang and gravity are on the same level of scientific verification, there is little room for logic it seems. I don't think any honest and informed person can say that.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2015, 08:02:41 AM »
Is it a given that everyone that believes in Judaism also believes we are to (insert your word of choice) to understand why G-d does things?
Yes and no.

We are allowed or even encouraged to ask why are we here, why did the holocaust happen, why do we do commandments. That is on one level. But ultimately we know we can not understand an infinite being, so our total understanding of everything will never happen, and just because we have questions or don't like the way G-d did something does not even in the slightest allow us to change anything in the religion.

It is silly to say I don't think G-d would be deceitful so the big bang happened (than why does sin exist? sounds deceitful to me). I don't think animals should be sacrificed so G-d just did it because it was cool back then.

Just my opinion. Seems others here disagree.
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Offline noturbizniss

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2015, 08:04:11 AM »
Gosh I love the internets.

But if someone thinks the existence of the big bang and gravity are on the same level of scientific verification, there is little room for logic it seems. I don't think any honest and informed person can say that.
You are both correct and I did mispeak about the big bang. There is however, AFAIK no way to say the universe is scientifically 6000 years old or less.
 http://www.reasons.org/articles/deep-core-tests-for-the-age-of-the-earth
It's nir a Jewish website but it explains the evidence for an earth more than 600 years old.
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Offline Moshe123

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2015, 08:04:33 AM »
Yes and no.

We are allowed or even encouraged to ask why are we here, why did the holocaust happen, why do we do commandments. That is on one level. But ultimately we know we can not understand an infinite being, so our total understanding of everything will never happen, and just because we have questions or don't like the way G-d did something does not even in the slightest allow us to change anything in the religion.

It is silly to say I don't think G-d would be deceitful so the big bang happened (than why does sin exist? sounds deceitful to me). I don't think animals should be sacrificed so G-d just did it because it was cool back then.

Just my opinion. Seems others here disagree.

Bingo

Offline jj1000

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2015, 08:09:00 AM »
You are both correct and I did mispeak about the big bang. There is however, AFAIK no way to say the universe is scientifically 6000 years old or less.
 http://www.reasons.org/articles/deep-core-tests-for-the-age-of-the-earth
It's nir a Jewish website but it explains the evidence for an earth more than 600 years old.
I am not talking about science. I am talking about the Torah. And I answered how it can be even in the literal interpretation of Genesis.
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Offline noturbizniss

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2015, 08:10:06 AM »
Yes and no.

We are allowed or even encouraged to ask why are we here, why did the holocaust happen, why do we do commandments. That is on one level. But ultimately we know we can not understand an infinite being, so our total understanding of everything will never happen, and just because we have questions or don't like the way G-d did something does not even in the slightest allow us to change anything in the religion.

It is silly to say I don't think G-d would be deceitful so the big bang happened (than why does sin exist? sounds deceitful to me). I don't think animals should be sacrificed so G-d just did it because it was cool back then.

Just my opinion. Seems others here disagree.
The deceitful God argument dies not immediately lead to the big bang, but it did leave me wanting a better explanation than that it was all formed as is. I'm aware that that is very much  accepted (the revive mentions it a few times in the letters you linked) but I can't imagine that hashem would allow new evidence without allowing us a way to reconcile to the Torah.
I do really love the beginning of the letter about naseh vnishma.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2015, 08:16:55 AM »
The deceitful God argument dies not immediately lead to the big bang, but it did leave me wanting a better explanation than that it was all formed as is. I'm aware that that is very much  accepted (the revive mentions it a few times in the letters you linked) but I can't imagine that hashem would allow new evidence without allowing us a way to reconcile to the Torah.
I do really love the beginning of the letter about naseh vnishma.
If you don't like Hashem testing us than why does Sin exist? That sounds deceitful to me?

Not that I think Hashem has to explain himself. But I gave you a perfectly acceptable answer which means hashem did give us an explanation on how to reconcile it with Torah. To me it is even logical as do you think man was created as a 1 second old sperm and egg, or was he created as a say 30 year old capable of taking care of himself? If Hashem made carbon age and trees get rings, than why wouldn't he put 1000 rings in trees that are 1000 years old, or break down that carbon 1000 years as well? Why wouldn't he put the universe in an expanding motion?

There is no reason that I can think up to say he didn't do all that stuff. And like I said it is logical things were put on this earth aged.
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Offline Emkay

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2015, 08:18:06 AM »

Offline noturbizniss

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #71 on: February 12, 2015, 08:23:27 AM »
getting warmer
Please enlighten me
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Offline Menachem613

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #72 on: February 12, 2015, 08:31:05 AM »

If you don't like Hashem testing us than why does Sin exist? That sounds deceitful to me?

Not that I think Hashem has to explain himself. But I gave you a perfectly acceptable answer which means hashem did give us an explanation on how to reconcile it with Torah. To me it is even logical as do you think man was created as a 1 second old sperm and egg, or was he created as a say 30 year old capable of taking care of himself? If Hashem made carbon age and trees get rings, than why wouldn't he put 1000 rings in trees that are 1000 years old, or break down that carbon 1000 years as well? Why wouldn't he put the universe in an expanding motion?

There is no reason that I can think up to say he didn't do all that stuff. And like I said it is logical things were put on this earth aged.

Are you saying that Hashem is trying to fool us? If yes, where do you draw the line?

Offline HP58

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #73 on: February 12, 2015, 08:43:51 AM »
Sorry for coming in on the middle here, but I read from the beginning.

As to Torah sources for the BBT, IINM a cursory reading of the Ramban in the beginning of Bereishis looks like he can mean the BBT. Look and CMIIW. Though he himself says a few verses later that the six days were six days of 24 hours, so he would have to hold that the world was created as is.
As to the Deceitful G-d argument, the traditional answer would be that if modern science would discover that nothing is more than 6000 years old, it would lessen confusion regarding the truth of the Torah to a degree that bechirah wouldn't exist , thereby destroying the purpose of the world.
And with regards to Torah sources for the Old World, the Abarbanel in Bereishis quotes a Rambam in Moreh who he explains as saying that the six days were six steps, not 24 hour days.

But regarding what you said about Korbanos, nothing personal @noturbizness, but you couldn't be more wrong. See Ramban Vayikra 1:9 for two explanations of ריח ניחוח, one pshat and one according to the kabbalah. If you believe that the Torah will always be true, the Torah says לדורותיכם,which Chazal explain to mean FOREVER.To look at the Korbanos like modern science looks at Aztec human sacrifice is a chillul Hashem IMO.
(Although if you look at that Ramban you'll see he brings a Rambam who explains Korbanos kind of the way you were saying, that it had to do with the mindset of the world at the time, see the Ramban's rebuttal. Pretty strong.)

Offline HP58

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #74 on: February 12, 2015, 08:53:25 AM »
Are you saying that Hashem is trying to fool us? If yes, where do you draw the line?
No G-d is not "trying to fool us". But he does not want to make it clear enough to remove bechirah. See the classic Ramban in Bo. See Ramchal in Derech Hashem.
Where to draw the line? Well, if you can't rely on the Rishonim with regards to science, at least trust them about religion. It was kinda their field of expertise... They tell us where the line is.