Topic Wiki

Creation vs. Evolution

Creation

  • Evolutionary theory rests on precepts set out by old, obsolete book written over a hundred years ago
  • Scientifically corroborated by numerous peer-reviewed Facebook posts
  • Banana flawlessly designed for use as fake phone
  • Bible verses about molecular mutation and generational metamorphosis in allele frequencies clearly allegorical
  • Nine electoral votes in Alabama
  • Results of natural selection experiments have only been reproduced a few thousand times in a laboratory
  • Archaeopteryx way too awesome to have evolved into shitty birds of today
  • Far easier to understand than evolution


Evolution

  • Personal feud with God
  • Saw frog evolve from pollywog
  • Distinct morphological similarities between ancient Neanderthal and Trent
  • Nice to think we actually distantly related to family dog
  • Want to see how much more upright next figure in evolutionary chart will be standing
  • That one Star Trek: Voyager episode where helmsman Tom Paris goes through rapid evolution
  • Dazzling oratorical genius of Clarence Darrow
  • Universe was created out of nothing billions of years ago, which you’ll just have to trust us on

Source: The Onion

Author Topic: Evolution and the age of the universe  (Read 16914 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #75 on: February 12, 2015, 09:12:47 AM »
So you do understand why G-d does things?
I was going to modify my no to something along the lines of this
Yes and no.

We are allowed or even encouraged to ask why are we here, why did the holocaust happen, why do we do commandments. That is on one level. But ultimately we know we can not understand an infinite being, so our total understanding of everything will never happen, and just because we have questions or don't like the way G-d did something does not even in the slightest allow us to change anything in the religion.

It is silly to say I don't think G-d would be deceitful so the big bang happened (than why does sin exist? sounds deceitful to me). I don't think animals should be sacrificed so G-d just did it because it was cool back then.

Just my opinion. Seems others here disagree.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #76 on: February 12, 2015, 09:17:21 AM »
WHy would it be more "deceitful" to create a world already in motion that to explicitly lie about the details of creation. Even if the basic ideas needed to be written in a non-literal way to make it understandable to the people of the time, there still would be no need for all of the details which explicitly state that things were created bikomoson. You would need to explain each detail in torah shebichsav and baal peh as to why that is not even more deceitful than your allegations.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #77 on: February 12, 2015, 09:18:19 AM »
Are you saying that Hashem is trying to fool us? If yes, where do you draw the line?
I don't think G-d has to draw lines. Did you answer my question as to why G-d created sin? is he trying to test us? That doesn't seem novel to me, as the whole Torah is full of tests and trials. Also the other replies to your question are good ones. Besides the fact I answered how it is not fooling us and gave a fine explanation.
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Offline Menachem613

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2015, 09:22:24 AM »

I don't think G-d has to draw lines. Did you answer my question as to why G-d created sin? is he trying to test us? That doesn't seem novel to me, as the whole Torah is full of tests and trials. Also the other replies to your question are good ones. Besides the fact I answered how it is not fooling us and gave a fine explanation.

Of course God doesn't have to draw lines. My question is on you.  How do you know which items are there to test us and which things are true?

Offline jj1000

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2015, 09:26:16 AM »
Of course God doesn't have to draw lines. My question is on you.  How do you know which items are there to test us and which things are true?
What is in the Torah is true.
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Offline henche

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2015, 09:31:48 AM »
I actually find Last Thursdayism far more likely than evolution.

You can have all the cute fossils in the world, and maybe even you can find it likely that the world is a bazillion years old, but evolution is just lunacy.

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2015, 09:34:50 AM »

I actually find Last Thursdayism far more likely than evolution.

You can have all the cute fossils in the world, and maybe even you can find it likely that the world is a bazillion years old, but evolution is just lunacy.

How many books on the topic have you read before you reached that conclusion?

Offline aygart

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #82 on: February 12, 2015, 09:36:28 AM »
Are you saying that Hashem is trying to fool us? If yes, where do you draw the line?
According to what some are saying here there He is trying to fool us either way. Either there wereparts of the creation made to fool us or the torah was written to fool us. I reject the premise.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #83 on: February 12, 2015, 09:53:45 AM »
What is in the Torah is true.
Is it possible the Torah or the Bible can be a test?
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #84 on: February 12, 2015, 09:57:16 AM »
Is it possible the Torah or the Bible can be a test?
A test for what? I do not understand the question.

Everything in it is 100% true. Not sure what else you are looking for.
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Offline Menachem613

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #85 on: February 12, 2015, 10:02:55 AM »

Is it possible the Torah or the Bible can be a test?

Are you asking whether God gave the Torah to test us as to whether we will be "fooled" by its rules and requirements rather than using our intellect and will punish us for not recognizing it?

Online Mordyk

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #86 on: February 12, 2015, 10:15:58 AM »
what a ridiculous thread. not that this is a topic that you cant discuss, it is just the way it is being discussed by religious jews...    yes, there are some things that you just believe in. was i there when god created the world? no. but do i believe it is only 5k+ years? yes.   the simplest answer is that god created a ready world. yes trees seem to be tens of thousands of years old and that is because it was created "ready". a ready world as if it was all here many years before.

 this line can be argued on almost every point made in this thread.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #87 on: February 12, 2015, 10:20:19 AM »
Are you asking whether God gave the Torah to test us as to whether we will be "fooled" by its rules and requirements rather than using our intellect and will punish us for not recognizing it?
I would rather make this about religion in general and not Judaism. Not exactly what I was thinking but since you brought it up, yes.

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Offline Boruch999

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #88 on: February 12, 2015, 10:21:57 AM »
So are you saying that this pasuk must be literal and therefore all the scientific tests, research and proofs that clearly show otherwise are wrong? 
How can you argue with carbon dating and the speed of light?  It is easier to say, as kangaruu said that the pasuk is a parable, that things were said in the torah in order to make it palatable for the jews fresh out of Egypt. 
Honestly, do you think the creator of the very universe needs us to sacrifice animals in a very specific way in order to be happy? Or could it be that perhaps the rest of the world at the time had such practices, and more (i.e. molech), and in order for the Jews to feel that they had a real honest to gd (no pun intended) religion and deity, they needed something like korbanos?  (on a related, but different topic, that is why I feel that when moshiach comes the korbanos might not make as much of a comeback as many would believe).
Once we can validly argue that things were included in the Torah for humanity's ease of understanding, why can't the above pasuk be such a concept? As to why the 7th day according to this reasoning...im at a loss.



In case you were wondering, for the most part, I ascribe to the school of thought that:As to your response:My response as mentioned is not from science rather from Torah....

Last but not least, the ONLY reason I bothered responding is because I got a sudden popcorn craving... :P

So are you saying that in your believe the earth was in fact created 5800 years ago?

Here's a sample:

http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v15i5e.htm

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #89 on: February 12, 2015, 10:23:29 AM »
what a ridiculous thread. not that this is a topic that you cant discuss, it is just the way it is being discussed by religious jews...    yes, there are some things that you just believe in. was i there when god created the world? no. but do i believe it is only 5k+ years? yes.   the simplest answer is that god created a ready world. yes trees seem to be tens of thousands of years old and that is because it was created "ready". a ready world as if it was all here many years before.

 this line can be argued on almost every point made in this thread.
While I'm going to disagree with your statement that this thread is ridiculous, I still don't understand the back and forth discussion here. What's the problem with the theory that God created everything in a grown up stage?
That should answer everything.
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