Evolution and the age of the universe

[noturbizniss]

1. The universe is 13.8 billion years old.
2. The earth is 4.5 billion years old.
3. Humans and chimps have a common ancestor (we did not evolve from chimps, but from a common ancestor).

Agree?
Disagree?
Call me an apikorus (heretic)?

Science and facts are preferred but I also welcome the opposite for entertainment value.

One more thing. The argument that the earth and universe as we see it was created some 5800 years ago in the state we see with fossils as we see them is invalid and cannot be proven either way. My response will be that the universe was created 2 seconds ago and I was put here midway through typing this post. Prove that one wrong.

Let's make this a popcorn thread abs have some fun!

[kangarruu]

1. The universe is 13.8 billion years old.
2. The earth is 4.5 billion years old.
3. Humans and chimps have a common ancestor (we did not evolve from chimps, but from a common ancestor).

Agree?
Disagree?
Call me an apikorus (heretic)?

1. Agree
2. Agree
3. Agree

Science and facts are preferred but I also welcome the opposite for entertainment value.

One more thing. The argument that the earth and universe as we see it was created some 5800 years ago in the state we see with fossils as we see them is invalid and cannot be proven either way. My response will be that the universe was created 2 seconds ago and I was put here midway through typing this post. Prove that one wrong.

Also known as Last Thursdayism.

Let's make this a popcorn thread abs have some fun!

I've got plenty of butter ready.

[noturbizniss]

Also known as Last Thursdayism.

I've got plenty of butter ready.

LOL. I think I've heard that terminology before, but it still makes me laugh.

To be clear, my belief is not that new scientific discoveries and explanations disprove the torah, rather they invite a new and deeper understanding and reading of the torah. 6 days of creation does not mean 6 days, nor does it even have to mean 6 periods of creation as the order of creation in bereishis is not the order of universal development (the sun was not formed after the grass, the birds did not evolve before land animals,etc.) but it can be a description of the important events relative to what the torah wants to teach us (in the same manner that all meforshim agree that the order of events is not the actual order, but changed around to get to a point).

[kangarruu]

LOL. I think I've heard that terminology before, but it still makes me laugh.

To be clear, my belief is not that new scientific discoveries and explanations disprove the torah, rather they invite a new and deeper understanding and reading of the torah. 6 days of creation does not mean 6 days, nor does it even have to mean 6 periods of creation as the order of creation in bereishis is not the order of universal development (the sun was not formed after the grass, the birds did not evolve before land animals,etc.) but it can be a description of the important events relative to what the torah wants to teach us (in the same manner that all meforshim agree that the order of events is not the actual order, but changed around to get to a point).

I think Rav Aviner puts it succinctly:

Big Bang Theory
Q: Is the Big Bang Theory possible?
A: It is possible. And in the Beginning, G-d created heaven and earth through the Big Bang.
Q: And what about evolution?
A: Same. Hashem created man through evolution.
Q: But the simple meaning of the verses do not seem to imply so.
A: They are a parable, or have hidden meaning (Igrot Ha-Re'eiyah 1, 91).

[Achas Veachas]

OK I'll bite:

The one thin I wont oblige you is:

Science and facts are preferred

And that is because I agree that creationism should not be called science. I will bring arguments from the Torah though.

So how do you esteemed apologetics explain the Following Pesukim from last week's Parashah: שֵׁשֶׁת יָמִים תַּעֲבֹד וְעָשִׂיתָ כָל מְלַאכְתֶּךָ: וְיוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי שַׁבָּת | לַיהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ... כִּי שֵׁשֶׁת יָמִים עָשָׂה יְהֹוָה אֶת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֶת הָאָרֶץ אֶת הַיָּם וְאֶת כָּל אֲשֶׁר בָּם וַיָּנַח בַּיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי...?



In case you were wondering, for the most part, I ascribe to the school of thought that:

the earth and universe as we see it was created some 5800 years ago in the state we see

As to your response:

My response will be that the universe was created 2 seconds ago and I was put here midway through typing this post. Prove that one wrong.

My response as mentioned is not from science rather from Torah....

Last but not least, the ONLY reason I bothered responding is because I got a sudden popcorn craving...

[kangarruu]

So how do you esteemed apologetics explain the Following Pesukim from last week's Parashah: שֵׁשֶׁת יָמִים תַּעֲבֹד וְעָשִׂיתָ כָל מְלַאכְתֶּךָ: וְיוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי שַׁבָּת | לַיהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ... כִּי שֵׁשֶׁת יָמִים עָשָׂה יְהֹוָה אֶת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֶת הָאָרֶץ אֶת הַיָּם וְאֶת כָּל אֲשֶׁר בָּם וַיָּנַח בַּיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי...?

Q: And what about evolution?
A: Same. Hashem created man through evolution.
Q: But the simple meaning of the verses do not seem to imply so.
A: They are a parable, or have hidden meaning (Igrot Ha-Re'eiyah 1, 91)

Last but not least, the ONLY reason I bothered responding is because I got a sudden popcorn craving...

I was expecting way more attention on this thread. 

[jj1000]

If it all comes down to whether Hashem created everything or mater was just floating in the universe, then why is fitting Torah with science any better than saying the Torah is to be taken literally?

[noturbizniss]

OK I'll bite:

The one thin I wont oblige you is: And that is because I agree that creationism should not be called science. I will bring arguments from the Torah though.

So how do you esteemed apologetics explain the Following Pesukim from last week's Parashah: שֵׁשֶׁת יָמִים תַּעֲבֹד וְעָשִׂיתָ כָל מְלַאכְתֶּךָ: וְיוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי שַׁבָּת | לַיהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ... כִּי שֵׁשֶׁת יָמִים עָשָׂה יְהֹוָה אֶת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֶת הָאָרֶץ אֶת הַיָּם וְאֶת כָּל אֲשֶׁר בָּם וַיָּנַח בַּיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי...?

So are you saying that this pasuk must be literal and therefore all the scientific tests, research and proofs that clearly show otherwise are wrong? 
How can you argue with carbon dating and the speed of light?  It is easier to say, as kangaruu said that the pasuk is a parable, that things were said in the torah in order to make it palatable for the jews fresh out of Egypt. 
Honestly, do you think the creator of the very universe needs us to sacrifice animals in a very specific way in order to be happy? Or could it be that perhaps the rest of the world at the time had such practices, and more (i.e. molech), and in order for the Jews to feel that they had a real honest to gd (no pun intended) religion and deity, they needed something like korbanos?  (on a related, but different topic, that is why I feel that when moshiach comes the korbanos might not make as much of a comeback as many would believe).
Once we can validly argue that things were included in the Torah for humanity's ease of understanding, why can't the above pasuk be such a concept? As to why the 7th day according to this reasoning...im at a loss.



In case you were wondering, for the most part, I ascribe to the school of thought that:As to your response:My response as mentioned is not from science rather from Torah....

Last but not least, the ONLY reason I bothered responding is because I got a sudden popcorn craving...
[/quote]
So are you saying that in your believe the earth was in fact created 5800 years ago?

[Baruch]

One more thing. The argument that the earth and universe as we see it was created some 5800 years ago in the state we see with fossils as we see them is invalid and cannot be proven either way. My response will be that the universe was created 2 seconds ago and I was put here midway through typing this post. Prove that one wrong.

I can't prove that the world was created in an old state.
But being that it is possible that the world was created in an old state - all the evidence of billions of years is almost meaningless.
Being that the glatte way of reading the Torah is - that the world is close to 5800 years old - I'll continue to  believe that.

[kangarruu]

If it all comes down to whether Hashem created everything or mater was just floating in the universe, then why is fitting Torah with science any better than saying the Torah is to be taken literally?

Hashem created everything, no doubt. The problems come in when we examine the natural world and it leads us to a conflict with what our understanding of the Torah is. The Torah and the natural world can't conflict. Therefore, the defect must be in our understanding of the natural world or in our understanding of the Torah. If logic and evidence lead us to a conclusion that is contrary to one interpretation of the Torah, then we should instead turn to interpretations of the Torah that do not conflict with what logic and evidence tell us about nature. Fortunately, the opinion that Bereshis is nonliteral has a lengthy and respected heritage, and we shouldn't feel uncomfortable with embracing it.

[noturbizniss]

If it all comes down to whether Hashem created everything or mater was just floating in the universe, then why is fitting Torah with science any better than saying the Torah is to be taken literally?

Not quite sure what you are asking, but if I may try to answer what I think your asking...
As a "modern" orthodox jew with a love of science, I firmly believe in hashem and that he created the universe (frankly - can never be disproven), but as our technology and scientific understanding advances and facts are established in ways that cannot be disproven or ignored (other than by self deluding oneself), the way I see it, we are left with 3 choices.
1. try to reexamine Torah and read deeper into what the deeper meaning was, or why things that seem to contradict what we know actually mean
2. Throw out the Torah and say if one part is literally wrong the whole thing is wrong
3. Ignore science and join the "religous  nutjob" camp.

[kangarruu]

I can't prove that the world was created in an old state.
But being that it is possible that the world was created in an old state - all the evidence of billions of years is almost meaningless.
Being that the glatte way of reading the Torah is - that the world is close to 5800 years old - I'll continue to  believe that.

It's a valid position, so long as you keep in mind that you are then accepting the conclusions reached by science, i.e., you accept evolution, the old earth, etc... It's just that you hold that as a matter of historical fact the world was created in media res, as it were.

[Baruch]

(on a related, but different topic, that is why I feel that when moshiach comes the korbanos might not make as much of a comeback as many would believe).

so you believe in Moshiach - but you don't believe in Karbanos? 

[noturbizniss]

I can't prove that the world was created in an old state.
But being that it is possible that the world was created in an old state - all the evidence of billions of years is almost meaningless.
Being that the glatte way of reading the Torah is - that the world is close to 5800 years old - I'll continue to  believe that.

If you read the article Kangaruu linked, it points out that the problem with that argument is that it leads to what is known as a "Deceitful god", i.e. that hashem created a world that essentially is a lie. That he is telling us that what we see is not true, do not believe your eyes as no matter what you think you know, the world as you know and understand it is a lie.

[noturbizniss]

so you believe in Moshiach - but you don't believe in Karbanos? 

I didn't say I don't believe in korbanos, but I am not so sure that they will make a comeback. Tell me. What is the reason for korbanos? For actual animal sacrifice. What not fruits?  In fact, Hevel's Korban was accepted over Kayin's not because it was an animal, but it was the best of his animals while Kayin gave the worst of his fruits.  Seems like Hashem would have been pleased either way.

[Achas Veachas]

I didn't say I don't believe in korbanos, but I am not so sure that they will make a comeback. Tell me. What is the reason for korbanos? For actual animal sacrifice. What not fruits?  In fact, Hevel's Korban was accepted over Kayin's not because it was an animal, but it was the best of his animals while Kayin gave the worst of his fruits.  Seems like Hashem would have been pleased either way.

Wow the popcorn exploded way too fast. I have loads to say but no head to make a Seder out of it now. See you guys in the morning...

[aygart]

I didn't say I don't believe in korbanos, but I am not so sure that they will make a comeback. Tell me. What is the reason for korbanos? For actual animal sacrifice. What not fruits?  In fact, Hevel's Korban was accepted over Kayin's not because it was an animal, but it was the best of his animals while Kayin gave the worst of his fruits.  Seems like Hashem would have been pleased either way.

you mean like bikurim?

[aygart]

As a form believer in Torah shebal peh I believe that things were created as if they had been around for a while. It is beferush a gemora about the korban that Adam brought which was a day old and still a shor and that everything was created bikomusun-fully grown.

[kangarruu]

As a form believer in Torah shebal peh I believe that things were created as if they had been around for a while. It is beferush a gemora about the korban that Adam brought which was a day old and still a shor and that everything was created bikomusun-fully grown.

And is everything in the gemara literal? And in what way is it meaningful to say that the shor was a day old when it was indistinguishable from its apparent age?

[noturbizniss]

As a form believer in Torah shebal peh I believe that things were created as if they had been around for a while. It is beferush a gemora about the korban that Adam brought which was a day old and still a shor and that everything was created bikomusun-fully grown.

What about the gemorah that says lice form spontaneously out of dust and dirt?
As I said in my original post there is no arguing with that. That being said, if you believe that, then there is absolutely no issue with saying the universe is 14 billions years old, and that we evolved from a chimp like ancestor since that's how we were created. 
You haven't commented on my question about hashem creating a world that is essentially one huge lie.