Topic Wiki

Creation vs. Evolution

Creation

  • Evolutionary theory rests on precepts set out by old, obsolete book written over a hundred years ago
  • Scientifically corroborated by numerous peer-reviewed Facebook posts
  • Banana flawlessly designed for use as fake phone
  • Bible verses about molecular mutation and generational metamorphosis in allele frequencies clearly allegorical
  • Nine electoral votes in Alabama
  • Results of natural selection experiments have only been reproduced a few thousand times in a laboratory
  • Archaeopteryx way too awesome to have evolved into shitty birds of today
  • Far easier to understand than evolution


Evolution

  • Personal feud with God
  • Saw frog evolve from pollywog
  • Distinct morphological similarities between ancient Neanderthal and Trent
  • Nice to think we actually distantly related to family dog
  • Want to see how much more upright next figure in evolutionary chart will be standing
  • That one Star Trek: Voyager episode where helmsman Tom Paris goes through rapid evolution
  • Dazzling oratorical genius of Clarence Darrow
  • Universe was created out of nothing billions of years ago, which you’ll just have to trust us on

Source: The Onion

Author Topic: Evolution and the age of the universe  (Read 48466 times)

Offline jj1000

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2015, 12:11:26 AM »

There are many books by that name. Which one specifically? 
Evolution is not hypothetical. People often think that the calling it a thory means it's still a question. it is not. Do you question the theory of gravity? Theory of relativity? Those are as much facts as evolution. 
That's why I remember being surprised. I'll see if I can track it down.
Big bang is not belief.
http://gizmodo.com/astronomers-discover-first-direct-proof-of-the-big-bang-1545525927
No reputable scientist questions it. It's just the details that are fuzzy.
OTOH there is no proof other than some (not all) mesorah that the Torah is literal. The thousands of years of science before were not science. They were Christianity. Galileo was a scientist and he was excommunicated for going against the church's geocentric views.

If the mesorah is good enough for someone, great.  Maybe your a better yiid than me. But I'm looking for something more tangible.
1. http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/111581/jewish/Mind-Over-Matter.htm

2. There is a reason it is called a law of gravity. Have they reproduced the creation of the universe in a controlled setting? It is laughable to say it went through the scientific method as any other experiment would.

3. Ok.

4. Forgive me I didn't read the article as I am headed to bed, but why couldn't Hashem have created the world like that? In one word he could have made that the world runs like that. And if you believe Hashem created the world than why did he have to create it with a big bang theory and not in one word and the nature was created to act like that.

No need to be sorry some people don't believe in Torah as strongly as others, hence some prefer a metaphoric interpretation of Torah. As long as you understand you aren't more right and you can't prove your way any more than I can prove my version, all is good. Seems we came a long way from religious nut job to you thinking it is great.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 12:14:45 AM by jj1000 »
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2015, 12:13:29 AM »
This is Last Thursdayism, an idea I linked to above. The key point I have with this explanation is that it does not require the rejection of any scientific finding. Under Last Thursdayism, you can happily agree with every scientific finding about the age of the universe, evolution, and the rest, but you just hold that as a matter of historical fact things started in the middle of the story.

The only reference I have handy is Challenge: Torah Views on Science and its Problems, which is a compilation of essays edited by Rabbi Aryeh Carmell. In particular, the essay beginning on page 255 cites a number of traditional authorities who hold that Bereshis is not literal. I'll have access to more materials tomorrow night, bezras Hashem.
So what's the problem with it? Like I said I have no problems why a scientist wants tho think how he does.

Ok. If I have time I'll take a look tomorrow.
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Offline noturbizniss

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2015, 12:15:37 AM »




4. Forgive me I didn't read the article as I am headed to bed, but why couldn't Hashem have created the world like that? In one word he could have made that the world runs like that. And if you believe Hashem created the world than why did he have to create it with a big bang theory and not in one word and the nature was created to act like that.


In in bed .
I do believe that. He created the universe and the method of that creation was the big bang. It's pretty incontrovertible.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2015, 12:17:28 AM »

In in bed .
I do believe that. He created the universe and the method of that creation was the big bang. It's pretty incontrovertible.
It doesn't have to be the big bang. It could of been regular creation ex nihilo and the nature of the world is to expand, and have waves of gravity etc etc.
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Offline doodle

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2015, 12:33:28 AM »
to notyourbiz
you have two groups ,,
either hold like me ... or your a religous nutjob?
this is not an intelligent debate , your a closeminded fool !
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Offline noturbizniss

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2015, 12:43:09 AM »
Your a closeminded fool !

I know your are but what am I?
Seriously? If you disregard all evidence then your close-minded.
And I said 3 groups.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 12:49:02 AM by noturbizniss »
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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2015, 12:44:13 AM »
Creation ex nihilio is illogical. Once you believe Hashem created the world from nothing creating a 'primordial atom' makes no more sense than creating a complete universe as we see it.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2015, 12:46:44 AM »
An intelligent debate about religion?
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Offline noturbizniss

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2015, 12:49:55 AM »
An intelligent debate about religion?
Was wondering when you'd stop on by
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2015, 12:53:31 AM »
Was wondering when you'd stop on by
I find it disgusting that someone would purposely start a thread just to reach popcorn status.
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Offline noturbizniss

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2015, 12:56:22 AM »
I find it disgusting that someone would purposely start a thread just to reach popcorn status.
But I didn't. I'm hopeful that there can be some honest discussion. So far there has been. I won't avoid immaturity if someone starts it (see my previous post) but I'm curious to see where this goes. If people like jj and kangaroo are the main participants it can remain civil.
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2015, 12:59:19 AM »
A few years ago i read the book "the eye of the needle" it was put out by aish hatorah i don't remember who wrote it but in there there was some way they made it make sense that the beginning of creation was about 15 billion years ago in the way we look at time or something like that i don't really remember how it worked out exactly. If someone has more info on it and can chime in it would help
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline aygart

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2015, 01:04:39 AM »
An intelligent debate about religion?
Judaism encourages it
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline noturbizniss

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2015, 01:06:38 AM »
A few years ago i read the book "the eye of the needle" it was put out by aish hatorah i don't remember who wrote it but in there there was some way they made it make sense that the beginning of creation was about 15 billion years ago in the way we look at time or something like that i don't really remember how it worked out exactly. If someone has more info on it and can chime in it would help
There's a Harvard physicist who wrote a book like that but it used bad and wrong science. He got blasted for it. I'll look tomorrow.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 01:29:45 AM by noturbizniss »
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2015, 01:10:57 AM »
Judaism encourages it
Is it a given that everyone that believes in Judaism also believes we are to (insert your word of choice) to understand why G-d does things?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 01:16:34 AM by ChaimMoskowitz »
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Offline doodle

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2015, 01:13:51 AM »
I find it disgusting that someone would purposely start a thread just to reach popcorn status.
  +1
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Offline aygart

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2015, 01:17:59 AM »
Is it a given that everyone that believes in Judaism also believes we are to (insert your word of choice) to understand why G-d does things?
No, so?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2015, 01:19:12 AM »
For the record I reject some of the premises which some posters say are proven without backing them up.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2015, 01:22:41 AM »
No, so?
So you do understand why G-d does things?
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Offline Emkay

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2015, 04:49:15 AM »
Is it a given that everyone that believes in Judaism also believes we are to (insert your word of choice) to understand why G-d does things?
If your a Jewish agnostic