Topic Wiki

Creation vs. Evolution

Creation

  • Evolutionary theory rests on precepts set out by old, obsolete book written over a hundred years ago
  • Scientifically corroborated by numerous peer-reviewed Facebook posts
  • Banana flawlessly designed for use as fake phone
  • Bible verses about molecular mutation and generational metamorphosis in allele frequencies clearly allegorical
  • Nine electoral votes in Alabama
  • Results of natural selection experiments have only been reproduced a few thousand times in a laboratory
  • Archaeopteryx way too awesome to have evolved into shitty birds of today
  • Far easier to understand than evolution


Evolution

  • Personal feud with God
  • Saw frog evolve from pollywog
  • Distinct morphological similarities between ancient Neanderthal and Trent
  • Nice to think we actually distantly related to family dog
  • Want to see how much more upright next figure in evolutionary chart will be standing
  • That one Star Trek: Voyager episode where helmsman Tom Paris goes through rapid evolution
  • Dazzling oratorical genius of Clarence Darrow
  • Universe was created out of nothing billions of years ago, which you’ll just have to trust us on

Source: The Onion

Author Topic: Evolution and the age of the universe  (Read 48477 times)

Offline henche

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2015, 09:31:48 AM »
I actually find Last Thursdayism far more likely than evolution.

You can have all the cute fossils in the world, and maybe even you can find it likely that the world is a bazillion years old, but evolution is just lunacy.

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2015, 09:34:50 AM »

I actually find Last Thursdayism far more likely than evolution.

You can have all the cute fossils in the world, and maybe even you can find it likely that the world is a bazillion years old, but evolution is just lunacy.

How many books on the topic have you read before you reached that conclusion?

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #82 on: February 12, 2015, 09:36:28 AM »
Are you saying that Hashem is trying to fool us? If yes, where do you draw the line?
According to what some are saying here there He is trying to fool us either way. Either there wereparts of the creation made to fool us or the torah was written to fool us. I reject the premise.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #83 on: February 12, 2015, 09:53:45 AM »
What is in the Torah is true.
Is it possible the Torah or the Bible can be a test?
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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #84 on: February 12, 2015, 09:57:16 AM »
Is it possible the Torah or the Bible can be a test?
A test for what? I do not understand the question.

Everything in it is 100% true. Not sure what else you are looking for.
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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #85 on: February 12, 2015, 10:02:55 AM »

Is it possible the Torah or the Bible can be a test?

Are you asking whether God gave the Torah to test us as to whether we will be "fooled" by its rules and requirements rather than using our intellect and will punish us for not recognizing it?

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #86 on: February 12, 2015, 10:15:58 AM »
what a ridiculous thread. not that this is a topic that you cant discuss, it is just the way it is being discussed by religious jews...    yes, there are some things that you just believe in. was i there when god created the world? no. but do i believe it is only 5k+ years? yes.   the simplest answer is that god created a ready world. yes trees seem to be tens of thousands of years old and that is because it was created "ready". a ready world as if it was all here many years before.

 this line can be argued on almost every point made in this thread.
#TYH

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #87 on: February 12, 2015, 10:20:19 AM »
Are you asking whether God gave the Torah to test us as to whether we will be "fooled" by its rules and requirements rather than using our intellect and will punish us for not recognizing it?
I would rather make this about religion in general and not Judaism. Not exactly what I was thinking but since you brought it up, yes.

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Offline Boruch999

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #88 on: February 12, 2015, 10:21:57 AM »
So are you saying that this pasuk must be literal and therefore all the scientific tests, research and proofs that clearly show otherwise are wrong? 
How can you argue with carbon dating and the speed of light?  It is easier to say, as kangaruu said that the pasuk is a parable, that things were said in the torah in order to make it palatable for the jews fresh out of Egypt. 
Honestly, do you think the creator of the very universe needs us to sacrifice animals in a very specific way in order to be happy? Or could it be that perhaps the rest of the world at the time had such practices, and more (i.e. molech), and in order for the Jews to feel that they had a real honest to gd (no pun intended) religion and deity, they needed something like korbanos?  (on a related, but different topic, that is why I feel that when moshiach comes the korbanos might not make as much of a comeback as many would believe).
Once we can validly argue that things were included in the Torah for humanity's ease of understanding, why can't the above pasuk be such a concept? As to why the 7th day according to this reasoning...im at a loss.



In case you were wondering, for the most part, I ascribe to the school of thought that:As to your response:My response as mentioned is not from science rather from Torah....

Last but not least, the ONLY reason I bothered responding is because I got a sudden popcorn craving... :P

So are you saying that in your believe the earth was in fact created 5800 years ago?

Here's a sample:

http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v15i5e.htm

Offline JoeCha

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #89 on: February 12, 2015, 10:23:29 AM »
what a ridiculous thread. not that this is a topic that you cant discuss, it is just the way it is being discussed by religious jews...    yes, there are some things that you just believe in. was i there when god created the world? no. but do i believe it is only 5k+ years? yes.   the simplest answer is that god created a ready world. yes trees seem to be tens of thousands of years old and that is because it was created "ready". a ready world as if it was all here many years before.

 this line can be argued on almost every point made in this thread.
While I'm going to disagree with your statement that this thread is ridiculous, I still don't understand the back and forth discussion here. What's the problem with the theory that God created everything in a grown up stage?
That should answer everything.
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Offline Redbull3

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #90 on: February 12, 2015, 10:28:39 AM »
1. The universe is 13.8 billion years old.
2. The earth is 4.5 billion years old.
3. Humans and chimps have a common ancestor (we did not evolve from chimps, but from a common ancestor).
Yes yes yes. Why can't the world be 5800 days old since the completion of creation ("day" 7), while still acknowledging that billions of years preceded "day" 7?

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #91 on: February 12, 2015, 10:31:58 AM »
What's the problem with the theory that God created everything in a grown up stage?
That should answer everything.
Were you taught that growing up?
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Offline henche

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #92 on: February 12, 2015, 10:32:22 AM »
How many books on the topic have you read before you reached that conclusion?

no, you're right, I haven't read enough books to have an opinion. 

How many have I read? You assume not enough, because I would obviously agree with you if I had.

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #93 on: February 12, 2015, 10:34:42 AM »

no, you're right, I haven't read enough books to have an opinion. 

How many have I read? You assume not enough, because I would obviously agree with you if I had.

So, which ones have you read?

Offline noturbizniss

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #94 on: February 12, 2015, 10:43:30 AM »
Kinda busy now,  but I wanna thank everyone for participating in what has become a mature and non popcorn natured thread with minimal name calling. I'm proud to be part of this family.
READ THE DARN WIKI!!!!

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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #95 on: February 12, 2015, 10:50:42 AM »
Really glad I didn't join last night (I wouldn't function today on so little sleep :P)

There was lots said in this thread and so much to respond to that I don't know where to start so I'll just go to the point I made in my first post.

The reason I chose the Possuk from Parshahs Yisro and not the many from Parshas Bereishis is precisely BECAUSE I knew you'll say those aren't literal. Yet here we have a Possuk where you apparently take part of it literally and part you don't. Saying that the part of the Possuk that says to keep Shabbos is meant to be taken literally and the part that discusses the reason for it is not seems a bit arbitrary. What would you say to those who say that our whole way of keeping Shabbos today is based on primitive principals? After all turning on the ignition in a car is no where near the hard work it took to light a fire in the desert.

What you are basically saying is that the parts of Torah that are "with it" I accept and the parts that don't fit in with the latest trends I don't. I have no problem with that but at least have the intellectual honesty to realize that the Torah was never "with it". There was never a point in history where Torah ideas were "cool". To say that the "primitive Hebrew slaves" where able to handle smashing the paganism and immorality of Egypt and Canaan and yet could not grasp simple 6th grade biology is foolish and dishonest.

The attitude of cutting out the parts of the Torah that don't "fit in" to modern life is not a new one, just some stopped at Korbanos and others went on with Shabbos and Kashrus as well...

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #96 on: February 12, 2015, 10:51:31 AM »
Were you taught that growing up?

Some of us have been taught literal interpretations of verses such as the below one that indicate Last Thursdayism, some of us have been taught to value and consider scientific progress when shaping our understanding of the Torah, some of us have been taught a mix or a different approach altogether.
 
Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #97 on: February 12, 2015, 10:54:35 AM »
Some of us have been taught literal interpretations of verses such as the below one that indicate Last Thursdayism, some of us have been taught to value and consider scientific progress when shaping our understanding of the Torah, some of us have been taught a mix or a different approach altogether.
The reason I asked was because I never heard that in school but my kids did.
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Offline Baruch

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #98 on: February 12, 2015, 10:59:59 AM »
no, you're right, I haven't read enough books to have an opinion. 

How many have I read? You assume not enough, because I would obviously agree with you if I had.
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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #99 on: February 12, 2015, 11:02:23 AM »
The reason I asked was because I never heard that in school but my kids did.
What year did you got school?
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