Evolution and the age of the universe

[Baruch]

What scares me about this thread is that a Jew who claims to be (Modern) Orthodox has so little education in Jewish Hashkafa, that he can claim that Karbanos are a hoax, because how can they please  God. Truly frightening.
Anyone that has a basic background in classical Jewish thought would realize that that is a foolish argument.

[aygart]

Were you taught that growing up?

It is explict in the Talmud that all animals were created in their adult stage.

[Redbull3]

What scares me about this thread is that a Jew who claims to be (Modern) Orthodox has so little education in Jewish Hashkafa, that he can claim that Karbanos are a hoax, because how can they please  God. Truly frightening.
Anyone that has a basic background in classical Jewish thought would realize that that is a foolish argument.

You're the one disparaging without actually contributing. If you're too frightened we don't need to know about it. Why not enlighten us?

[aygart]

Really glad I didn't join last night (I wouldn't function today on so little sleep )

There was lots said in this thread and so much to respond to that I don't know where to start so I'll just go to the point I made in my first post.

The reason I chose the Possuk from Parshahs Yisro and not the many from Parshas Bereishis is precisely BECAUSE I knew you'll say those aren't literal. Yet here we have a Possuk where you apparently take part of it literally and part you don't. Saying that the part of the Possuk that says to keep Shabbos is meant to be taken literally and the part that discusses the reason for it is not seems a bit arbitrary. What would you say to those who say that our whole way of keeping Shabbos today is based on primitive principals? After all turning on the ignition in a car is no where near the hard work it took to light a fire in the desert.

What you are basically saying is that the parts of Torah that are "with it" I accept and the parts that don't fit in with the latest trends I don't. I have no problem with that but at least have the intellectual honesty to realize that the Torah was never "with it". There was never a point in history where Torah ideas were "cool". To say that the "primitive Hebrew slaves" where able to handle smashing the paganism and immorality of Egypt and Canaan and yet could not grasp simple 6th grade biology is foolish and dishonest.

The attitude of cutting out the parts of the Torah that don't "fit in" to modern life is not a new one, just some stopped at Korbanos and others went on with Shabbos and Kashrus as well...

Am I correct that you are saying another example (with added twists) of what I wrote here? (just trying to make sure I get what you are saying)

WHy would it be more "deceitful" to create a world already in motion that to explicitly lie about the details of creation. Even if the basic ideas needed to be written in a non-literal way to make it understandable to the people of the time, there still would be no need for all of the details which explicitly state that things were created bikomoson. You would need to explain each detail in torah shebichsav and baal peh as to why that is not even more deceitful than your allegations.

[Achas Veachas]

Am I correct that you are saying another example (with added twists) of what I wrote here? (just trying to make sure I get what you are saying)

No, I was addressing something very different (the idea that the Jews coming out of Mitzrayim were too primitive to understand an ancient world). Your point is a very good one that I wanted to elaborate on as well....

[Baruch]

You're the one disparaging without actually contributing. If you're too frightened we don't need to know about it. Why not enlighten us?

I'm not trying to disparage. I'm commenting on the low quality of Jewish education some Jews are receiving that they don't know that Hashem is למעלה מהשגתינו. I truly find it frightening.

[Redbull3]

What would you say to those who say that our whole way of keeping Shabbos today is based on primitive principals? After all turning on the ignition in a car is no where near the hard work it took to light a fire in the desert.

I would say that we have a system of halacha and mesora that we are beholden to, that operates under its own set of rules and we don't make changes to it even in the face of scientific discovery (or new technologies making things easier in your case). For example, someone mentioned lice upthread. The gemara says that one is permitted to kill lice on shabbas because they spontaneously generate - prohibition of killing animals only applies to those that produce. We know today (thanks to science) that lice don't spontaneously generate, but chazal didn't realize that (which is because they were imperfect human beings and operating under the knowledge of the time). My point to bringing all this up is we don't change halacha because of the newfound knowledge - lice can still be killed. Right?

[Boruch999]

I would say that we have a system of halacha and mesora that we are beholden to, that operates under its own set of rules and we don't make changes to it even in the face of scientific discovery. For example, someone mentioned lice upthread. The gemara says that one is permitted to kill lice on shabbas because they spontaneously generate - prohibition of killing animals only applies to those that produce. We know today (thanks to science) that lice don't spontaneously generate, but chazal didn't realize that (which is because they were imperfect human beings and operating under the knowledge of the time). My point to bringing all this up is we don't change halacha because of the newfound knowledge - lice can still be killed. Right?

Machloikes.  Rav Elyashiv held one should not kill lice on Shabbos.  Many poiskim maintain that one can kill lice on Shabbos.  As I understand it, this is a corollary of the worms in fish machloikes.

[Redbull3]

Machloikes.  Rav Elyashiv held one should not kill lice on Shabbos.  Many poiskim maintain that one can kill lice on Shabbos.  As I understand it, this is a corollary of the worms in fish machloikes.

I stand corrected - machloikes - thank you. But the tzad that allows them to be killed does so because Halacha doesn't change just because our understanding of nature does.

[Achas Veachas]

I would say that we have a system of halacha and mesora that we are beholden to, that operates under its own set of rules and we don't make changes to it even in the face of scientific discovery (or new technologies making things easier in your case). For example, someone mentioned lice upthread. The gemara says that one is permitted to kill lice on shabbas because they spontaneously generate - prohibition of killing animals only applies to those that produce. We know today (thanks to science) that lice don't spontaneously generate, but chazal didn't realize that (which is because they were imperfect human beings and operating under the knowledge of the time). My point to bringing all this up is we don't change halacha because of the newfound knowledge - lice can still be killed. Right?

So the Torah we keep these days is just a relic of a primitive way of understanding the world? What about the Mitzvah of Shabbos itself which is, as Heshem said, to commemorate how He created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th? Did Hashem have a primitive understanding of how the world works? Or he knew and just gave us a Mitzvah based on a fantasy story he told us?

[Boruch999]

I stand corrected - machloikes - thank you. But the tzad that allows them to be killed does so because Halacha doesn't change just because our understanding of nature does.

I would put it slightly differently.  Halacha doesn't change because it is based on absolute principles rooted in the absolute truth of the Torah.  Our understanding of nature is incomplete and subject to change.  It is therefore silly to try and use our understanding of nature as a basis for changing halacha.

If I understand correctly, Rav Elyashiv held that one can use contemporary understanding of nature to be machmir, but not maikil.  That is because contemporary understand of nature is by definition incomplete and tentative.   

[Menachem613]

So the Torah we keep these days is just a relic of a primitive way of understanding the world? What about the Mitzvah of Shabbos itself which is, as Heshem said, to commemorate how He created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th? Did Hashem have a primitive understanding of how the world works? Or he knew and just gave us a Mitzvah based on a fantasy story he told us?

I thought it was Zecher Letziyas Mitzrayim too.

[Redbull3]

So the Torah we keep these days is just a relic of a primitive way of understanding the world?

Yes if the alternative is to believe that lice spontaneously generate.

What about the Mitzvah of Shabbos itself which is, as Heshem said, to commemorate how He created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th? Did Hashem have a primitive understanding of how the world works? Or he knew and just gave us a Mitzvah based on a fantasy story he told us?

Are you saying I need to believe that God literally created the world in 6 days to understand the Mitzvah or its purpose?

[Achas Veachas]

Are you saying I need to believe that God literally created the world in 6 days to understand the Mitzvah or its purpose?

I'm not saying it, it says in the Asseres Hadibros...

[Achas Veachas]

I believe it boils down to one point. The Creator has the ultimate authority regarding his creation.

I remember an anecdote from a science fiction book I read as a kid (I don't remember which one) where scientists in Area 51 were analyzing a piece of alien technology for years assuming that it represented some kind of new and unheard of technology, trying to figure out what it was and maybe reverse engineer it. At one point an alien happens on the scene and starts laughing while explaining to his human friend that the apparatus is actually a toilet from an alien spaceship.

Now imagine that one of the scientists working there would say What do you mean? I've been studying this thing for years and I came up with these amazing theories as to the true purpose of this thing. Everyone would laugh at him. Here you have the alien who made this thing, he has the blueprint and he's TELLING you what it is.

If you take for a given (and for the purpose of this thread I will) that the Torah is misinai and given to us by the creator, then what room is there for debate once the creator TOLD US how he created the world? I have nothing against the scientists. They are doing their jobs the best they can under the data that they have and the assumptions that are guiding them (as they should) but science and Torah operate on 2 fundamentally different planes and one can not contradict the other...

[Redbull3]

I would put it slightly differently.  Halacha doesn't change because it is based on absolute principles rooted in the absolute truth of the Torah.  Our understanding of nature is incomplete and subject to change.  It is therefore silly to try and use our understanding of nature as a basis for changing halacha.

If I understand correctly, Rav Elyashiv held that one can use contemporary understanding of nature to be machmir, but not maikil.  That is because contemporary understand of nature is by definition incomplete and tentative.   

The Torah is truth, timeless, infallible - but those who have interpreted it (and established halacha) weren't.

[Redbull3]

I'm not saying it, it says in the Asseres Hadibros...

But we know the Torah isn't always literal, like we didn't fly out of Egypt on Eagle's wings and in those same 10 commandments god calls himself jealous (el kana) and lots of other examples. The Torah is filled with metaphor, allegory, simile, parable, etc.

[Achas Veachas]

But we know the Torah isn't always literal, like we didn't fly out of Egypt on Eagle's wings and in those same 10 commandments god calls himself jealous (el kana) and lots of other examples. The Torah is filled with metaphor, allegory, simile, parable, etc.

And yet we never got a Mitzvah based on a parable or an allegory...

[Redbull3]

I believe it boils down to one point. The Creator has the ultimate authority regarding his creation.

I remember an anecdote from a science fiction book I read as a kid (I don't remember which one) where scientists in Area 51 were analyzing a piece of alien technology for years assuming that it represented some kind of new and unheard of technology, trying to figure out what it was and maybe reverse engineer it. At one point an alien happens on the scene and starts laughing while explaining to his human friend that the apparatus is actually a toilet from an alien spaceship.

Now imagine that one of the scientists working there would say What do you mean? I've been studying this thing for years and I came up with these amazing theories as to the true purpose of this thing. Everyone would laugh at him. Here you have the alien who made this thing, he has the blueprint and he's TELLING you what it is.

If you take for a given (and for the purpose of this thread I will) that the Torah is misinai and given to us by the creator, then what room is there for debate once the creator TOLD US how he created the world? I have nothing against the scientists. They are doing their jobs the best they can under the data that they have and the assumptions that are guiding them (as they should) but science and Torah operate on 2 fundamentally different planes and one can not contradict the other...

I'm with you, the only question is what were we told, given that it was dictated in human language (hebrew) and besides Sheldon Cooper, no one who uses a human language is 100% literal all of the time.

[Achas Veachas]

I'm with you, the only question is what were we told, given that it was dictated in human language (hebrew) and besides Sheldon Cooper, no one who uses a human language is 100% literal all of the time.

For that we have a Mesorah and a Torah Shebe'al Peh, and the classic Mesorah is overwhelmingly for a literal interpretation of Bereishis (as well as any part of Torah that has practical applications).