Topic Wiki

Creation vs. Evolution

Creation

  • Evolutionary theory rests on precepts set out by old, obsolete book written over a hundred years ago
  • Scientifically corroborated by numerous peer-reviewed Facebook posts
  • Banana flawlessly designed for use as fake phone
  • Bible verses about molecular mutation and generational metamorphosis in allele frequencies clearly allegorical
  • Nine electoral votes in Alabama
  • Results of natural selection experiments have only been reproduced a few thousand times in a laboratory
  • Archaeopteryx way too awesome to have evolved into shitty birds of today
  • Far easier to understand than evolution


Evolution

  • Personal feud with God
  • Saw frog evolve from pollywog
  • Distinct morphological similarities between ancient Neanderthal and Trent
  • Nice to think we actually distantly related to family dog
  • Want to see how much more upright next figure in evolutionary chart will be standing
  • That one Star Trek: Voyager episode where helmsman Tom Paris goes through rapid evolution
  • Dazzling oratorical genius of Clarence Darrow
  • Universe was created out of nothing billions of years ago, which you’ll just have to trust us on

Source: The Onion

Author Topic: Evolution and the age of the universe  (Read 48472 times)

Offline Freddie

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #280 on: March 30, 2018, 10:31:13 AM »
Time to burn the chametz.

Offline Baruch

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #281 on: October 23, 2019, 09:01:56 PM »
It's a well known (and, to beginners, mind-blowing) teaching of Chassidus. The laws of nature are in essence just miracles that happen with consistency...

For more info see Sha'ar hayichud Veha'emunah by the Ba'al Hatanya...
I'm speaking about this on Shabbos, and I remembered this thread, can someone help me, exactly where to find it in Tanya?

Specifically, that Hashem recreates every second.

Offline Baruch

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #282 on: October 23, 2019, 09:10:19 PM »
lol I didn't say it's an exclusively Chassidishe concept (it has it's source in Medrash Tehillim). Just that Chassidus is Ma'arich on it and that a lot of Chassidus is based on it...
And what's the source in Midrash Tehillim.


Or, how do I get a hold of @Achas Veachas

Offline Dan

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Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #284 on: October 23, 2019, 09:48:49 PM »
And what's the source in Midrash Tehillim.


Or, how do I get a hold of @Achas Veachas

מדרש תהלים on Tehillim 119:89
Quote
לכך נאמר לעולם ה' דברך נצב בשמים. מהו דברך נצב בשמים אי זהו דבר הנצב בשמים. אלא אמר הקב"ה על מה השמים עומדים על אותו דבר שאמרתי (בראשית א ו-ז) יהי רקיע בתוך המים. ויהי כן. וכתיב (תהלים לג ט) כי הוא אמר ויהי וגו'. אותו הדבר שאמר הוא עשה. לכך נאמר (שם) הוא צוה ויעמוד. בדבר ה' שמים נעשו ובאותו הדבר שברא אותן בו הם עומדים לעולם. לכך נאמר לעולם ה' דברך נצב בשמים.
https://www.sefaria.org/Midrash_Tehillim.119.25?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en

Offline Baruch

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #285 on: October 23, 2019, 09:49:29 PM »
Thanks!

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #286 on: October 23, 2019, 10:02:05 PM »
I'm speaking about this on Shabbos, and I remembered this thread, can someone help me, exactly where to find it in Tanya?

Specifically, that Hashem recreates every second.
I answered this in PM, but realized it might benefit others so cross-posting here:

Hmm, blast from the past :)

Hard to recall what I had in mind 5 years ago, but my guess is that I was referring to these lines from Perek 2:

Quote
מעשה שמים וארץ שהוא יש מאין והוא פלא גדול יותר מקריעת ים סוף עד"מ שהוליך ה' את הים ברוח קדים עזה כל הלילה ויבקעו המים ונצבו כמו נד וכחומה ואילו הפסיק ה' את הרוח כרגע היו המים חוזרים וניגרים במורד כדרכם וטבעם ולא קמו כחומה בלי ספק אף שהטבע הזה במים גם כן נברא ומחודש יש מאין שהרי חומת אבנים נצבת מעצמה בלי רוח רק שטבע המים אינו כן וכ"ש וק"ו בבריאת יש מאין שהיא למעלה מהטבע והפלא ופלא יותר מקריעת ים סוף

Those aren't the exact אותיות that I used, but the idea that the the act of creating the natural world and all its laws constantly is a miracle, and a bigger miracle than creating the world for the first time.

The אותיות I used probably came from Tzvi Freeman article that I love (https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2809/jewish/The-Shushan-Files.htm)

Long read, but worth it :)

Offline Dan

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #287 on: October 23, 2019, 10:07:38 PM »
I answered this in PM, but realized it might benefit others so cross-posting here:

Those aren't the exact אותיות that I used, but the idea that the the act of creating the natural world and all its laws constantly is a miracle, and a bigger miracle than creating the world for the first time.

The אותיות I used probably came from Tzvi Freeman article that I love (https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2809/jewish/The-Shushan-Files.htm)

Long read, but worth it :)

Good to see you!
It's not a cross-post if it was a PM :D
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Baruch

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #288 on: October 23, 2019, 10:10:25 PM »
Here's what the Nefesh Hachaim wrote in the same vain:
נפש החיים שער א': אבל הוא ית"ש כמו בעת בריאת העולמות כולם בראם והמציאם הוא יתברך יש מאין בכחו הבלתי תכלית, כן מאז כל יום וכל רגע ממש כל כח מציאותם וסדרם וקיומם, תלוי רק במה שהוא ית"ש משפיע בהם ברצונו יתברך, כל רגע כח ושפעת אור חדש. ואלו היה הוא ית' מסלק מהם כח השפעתו אף רגע אחת כרגע היו כולם לאפס ותהו וכמו שיסדו אנשי כנסת הגדולה "המחדש (*) בטובו בכל יום תמיד מעשה בראשית" היינו תמיד ממש כל עת ורגע, וראייתם מפורשת כאמור "לעושה אורים גדולים" שלא אמר עשה אלא עושה.


Interstingly, the Baal Hatanya doesn't bring the Nefesh Hachaim's raya from Birchos Krias Shma, also interestingly, the Lubavitcher Rebbe (the most recent one), does bring this raya, but not in the name of Rav Chaim Volzhiner, does anyone know if he learned Nefesh Hachaim? I'd be shocked if he didn't. Does he ever quote him?

Offline chinagel

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #289 on: October 24, 2019, 01:11:54 AM »
I'm speaking about this on Shabbos, and I remembered this thread, can someone help me, exactly where to find it in Tanya?

Specifically, that Hashem recreates every second.
First bracha of Shemoneh Esrei-v'koneh hakol.

Offline good sam

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #290 on: June 28, 2020, 08:32:48 PM »
Where is it written that belief in a literal 6-day creation is a fundamental tenet of Judaism?

Why would Hashem create the world in a certain way and fill it with overwhelming evidence that it was created in a different way.

Why do we assume that maaseh breishis was written for the purpose of informing us of the specific manner of creation? Can we possibly think that we understand literally how the world was created on the basis of a handful of psukim? Only a fool would think so.

Maybe it was written for a specific and limited reason. (Rashbam for instance says if it were not written we wouldn't be able to understand the commandment of Shabbos.)

I recommend Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan's work on the subject. Stop twisting yourself into a pretzel all the time and give yourself permission to believe in the science. It's liberating.
If you don't care why would you comment?
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Offline Definitions

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #291 on: June 28, 2020, 09:16:22 PM »
Where is it written that belief in a literal 6-day creation is a fundamental tenet of Judaism?

Why would Hashem create the world in a certain way and fill it with overwhelming evidence that it was created in a different way.

Why do we assume that maaseh breishis was written for the purpose of informing us of the specific manner of creation? Can we possibly think that we understand literally how the world was created on the basis of a handful of psukim? Only a fool would think so.

Maybe it was written for a specific and limited reason. (Rashbam for instance says if it were not written we wouldn't be able to understand the commandment of Shabbos.)

I recommend Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan's work on the subject. Stop twisting yourself into a pretzel all the time and give yourself permission to believe in the science. It's liberating.
I find it much more liberating to think that it's literal as opposed to saying that everything was done naturally except that the beginning was caused by God. To me that seems like squeezing God into the equation.
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Offline good sam

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #292 on: June 28, 2020, 09:50:14 PM »
I find it much more liberating to think that it's literal as opposed to saying that everything was done naturally except that the beginning was caused by God. To me that seems like squeezing God into the equation.
The science doesn't bother you?
If you don't care why would you comment?
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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #293 on: June 28, 2020, 10:31:33 PM »
The science doesn't bother you?
not really. I'm perfectly fine saying that the world was created old with everything in it. As to the reasons why, I don't have any good ones and I'm fine with that too.
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Offline good sam

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #294 on: June 28, 2020, 11:10:26 PM »
not really. I'm perfectly fine saying that the world was created old with everything in it. As to the reasons why, I don't have any good ones and I'm fine with that too.
Weirdest thing about this theory is the world being created with dinosaur bones buried in it.
If you don't care why would you comment?
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Offline good sam

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #295 on: June 28, 2020, 11:38:18 PM »
Just read through the thread, want to go back to this early post from Ru.

Can you point to a single traditional source that suggests the world was created in anything other than 6 days?

Even Slifkin in his argument for evolution acknowledges that there is no basis in traditional sources for his opinion (making him IMHO all the more of a chutzpinyak). So as logical as you may think it is to say that Maaseh Bereisheis is not to be taken literally, understand that you are discarding the writings of ALL the wise Jewish sages throughout the generations. If you can do that and still sleep at night, kudos.
Where is it written that belief in a literal 6-day creation is a fundamental tenet of Judaism?

Why would Hashem create the world in a certain way and fill it with overwhelming evidence that it was created in a different way.

Why do we assume that maaseh breishis was written for the purpose of informing us of the specific manner of creation? Can we possibly think that we understand literally how the world was created on the basis of a handful of psukim? Only a fool would think so.

Maybe it was written for a specific and limited reason. (Rashbam for instance says if it were not written we wouldn't be able to understand the commandment of Shabbos.)

I recommend Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan's work on the subject. Stop twisting yourself into a pretzel all the time and give yourself permission to believe in the science. It's liberating.
If anyone needed proof of evolution
If you don't care why would you comment?
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Offline gozalim

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #296 on: June 29, 2020, 12:04:13 AM »
You should start keeping CY again

Offline yossig

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #297 on: June 29, 2020, 12:11:31 AM »
The science doesn't bother you?
who created science?
Who created the ילידי הענק?
Does science approve of a donkey speaking?
What about קריעת ים סוף?

Offline good sam

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #298 on: June 29, 2020, 07:18:37 AM »


who created science?
Who created the ילידי הענק?
Hashem

Does science approve of a donkey speaking?
What about קריעת ים סוף?
Aberrations

I don't get your point.
If you don't care why would you comment?
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Online zh cohen

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Re: Evolution and the age of the universe
« Reply #299 on: June 29, 2020, 07:51:29 AM »
Weirdest thing about this theory is the world being created with dinosaur bones buried in it.

Why is that any weirder than Adam Harishon having a belly button?