For Sale or Trade: My Soul

[Dan]

How is not using SBS "a standard?"

Any how did DDF get you into using corp codes?

[Aj3042]

Ugh, where to start?

A. Don't lump together SBS, signup bonuses, and fake corp codes. 
-SBS is legit within every term of the offer. Making up fake names is wrong, but most don't do that.
-Churning may or may not be allowed per Ts and Cs, but is something banks can decide on whether to award the miles or not whenever they feel like it.
-Lying about which company you work for is something completely different.

B. It's nice to live a lifestyle that would require an income many times what you can get otherwise, but there's no need to stoop low to achieve that.  Ultimately the chinese farmer sleeping on the ground is content with his lifestyle too, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have aspirations.

But I'll wait in line or sit in coach and not be irritated, the key is to remain grounded and not become arrogant.

Pardon my bluntness, but your analysis is flawed for one simple reason. Just because something isn't outrifht barred doesn't mean it's perfectly ok. Let me ask you a simple question. Would you buy an AC from a mom and pop shop with the intention of returning it after the summer (many small business dont gave specific TC's barring that)? If not, why? The answer is simple-according to strict law, you may-but it's not the right thing. So your insistence that SBS (times 50 or whatever exact number of cards) and churning are all right because they're not specifically banned falls flat in the face of this example.

[Dan]

You're lumping things together that don't belong together.

Buying with the intent to return is not the same as SBS.
SBS is not the same as churning.
Churning is not the same as using a corp code
Using a corp code is not the same as providing false info to Target.

[yuneeq]

You're lumping things together that don't belong together.

Buying with the intent or return it's the same as SBS, just stop it please.

For the sake of arguement, I will argue that both have 100% legal loopholes that can ethically be exploited.

[CS1]

For the sake of arguement, I will argue that both have 100% legal loopholes that can ethically be exploited.

-1
SBS is actually the correct intent of the creation of SBS; however buying an item for the purpose of returning it is not the correct intent.

[yuneeq]

-1
SBS is actually the correct intent of the creation of SBS; however buying an item for the purpose of returning it is not the correct intent.

We're not referring to signing up 1 card for SBS. We're talking about 100's or thousands of cards.
Convince me that Amex's intent is for you transfer thousands of dollars into your pocket.

ETA: Just curious, if Amex was owned by a friend of yours, how many cards would you sign up for?

[CS1]

We're not referring to signing up for 1 card. We're talking about 100's or thousands of cards.
Convince me that Amex's intent is for you transfer thousands of dollars into your pocket.

true, but to say, "both have 100% legal loopholes" makes them sound equal.

A moderate 3 SBS credits and 3 intentionally returned items are not ethically equal to each other.

[etech0]

And for those who complain that DDF is a waste of time, you really don't belong on this thread...

[Dan]

We're not referring to signing up 1 card for SBS. We're talking about 100's or thousands of cards.
Convince me that Amex's intent is for you transfer thousands of dollars into your pocket.

ETA: Just curious, if Amex was owned by a friend of yours, how many cards would you sign up for?

It would be beyond simple for AMEX, after all these years, to limit SBS to primary cards if they cared.
It would be impossible to WM to divine your intention of buying a item.

Only one of these cases is halachikly problematic.

[yuneeq]

It would be beyond simple for AMEX, after all these years, to limit SBS to primary cards if they cared.
It would be impossible to WM to divine your intention of buying a item.

Only one of these cases is halachikly problematic.

So the lack of caring (which takes up resources btw) defines Amex's intent?
And if Walmart doesn't change their return policy after all these years, that means they don't care about intentional returns? It's probably also impossible for Amex to tell you exactly how many cards is too many, so maybe that's why they don't make such rules.

[Dan]

So the lack of caring (which takes up resources btw) defines Amex's intent?
And if Walmart doesn't change their return policy after all these years, that means they don't care about intentional returns? It's probably also impossible for Amex to tell you exactly how many cards is too many, so maybe that's why they don't make such rules.

You're being beyond krum.

If AMEX didn't like people maxing out SBS they could still have the same success with SBS with just primary cards.  That would take exactly zero resources.
5 years later and they still don't care.
Why?
Because they have an SBS budget and sponsors for that budget.  The more cards the merrier up to the limit of that budget. That makes it a success and makes businesses need to take AMEX if they want in on the fun.

AMEX isn't some company run by your friend. They know exactly what they're doing.

WM would have to throw the baby out with the bathwater to stop allowing returns. There's no way to effectively divine someone's intention other than banning repeat offenders (which does happen in many stores).

[dealfinder85]

WM would have to throw the baby out with the bathwater to stop allowing returns. There's no way to effectively divine someone's intention other than banning repeat offenders (which does happen in many stores).

And they hope ppl won't cheat the system, especially Jews, who not only make a chillul Hashem in doing it, but also violate other issurim as well

[Aj3042]

You're being beyond krum.

If AMEX didn't like people maxing out SBS they could still have the same success with SBS with just primary cards.  That would take exactly zero resources.
5 years later and they still don't care.
Why?
Because they have an SBS budget and sponsors for that budget.  The more cards the merrier up to the limit of that budget. That makes it a success and makes businesses need to take AMEX if they want in on the fun.

AMEX isn't some company run by your friend. They know exactly what they're doing.

WM would have to throw the baby out with the bathwater to stop allowing returns. There's no way to effectively divine someone's intention other than banning repeat offenders (which does happen in many stores).

You're coming up with all sorts of cheshbonos why AMEX in fact likes SBS abuse but common sense dictates that they don't. So the sevaros won't get you anywhere.

[Achas Veachas]

You're coming up with all sorts of cheshbonos why AMEX in fact likes SBS abuse but common sense dictates that they don't. So the sevaros won't get you anywhere.

He never said they LIKE he said they couldn't care less.

[Aj3042]

You're being beyond krum.

If AMEX didn't like people maxing out SBS they could still have the same success with SBS with just primary cards.  That would take exactly zero resources.
5 years later and they still don't care.
Why?
Because they have an SBS budget and sponsors for that budget.  The more cards the merrier up to the limit of that budget. That makes it a success and makes businesses need to take AMEX if they want in on the fun.

AMEX isn't some company run by your friend. They know exactly what they're doing.

WM would have to throw the baby out with the bathwater to stop allowing returns. There's no way to effectively divine someone's intention other than banning repeat offenders (which does happen in many stores).

To bring a in a good example, take AMEX churning. Do you really believe they were fine with it until last May because it was profitable for them until then and then they started losing off it? Of course not. Obviously, it's something they didn't like, but as long as it wasn't geing done too much they ignored it because it wasn't worth their attention. Same with SBS. It's not that they calculate it to be a good thing for them, just that it's not worth their time now to implement changes. 

[EMCC]

STOP IT you guys, there are enough SBS threads in DDF.

[dealfinder85]

STOP IT you guys, there are enough SBS threads in DDF.

Ha ha

[yuneeq]

He never said they LIKE he said they couldn't care less.

Well actually he did.

The more cards the merrier up to the limit of that budget. That makes it a success and makes businesses need to take AMEX if they want in on the fun.

I truly believe he is not being honest with himself.
ETA: Does anyone here think that a company wants a big chunk of their promotional budget wasted on a tiny percentage of unprofitable cardholders?

[Myccrabbi]

ETA: Does anyone here think that a company wants a big chunk of their promotional budget wasted on a tiny percentage of unprofitable cardholders?

Tough on them!
Is amex ethical in making millions of people drown in debt and make them pay high intrest by luring them with points/promotions?

 I say we take what's ours to take.

[maxie m]

it is well said
each person needs to take a step back and see if they are going overboard. see what things used to be priorities in your life and are now taking a back seat bc you need to huca this and huca that. are you driving 45 minutes to target to load redcard? are you ignoring ppl who deserve some of your time?  are you pushing the ethics boundaries further and further? and most importantly, are you giving the rest of "the folk" a bad name by anything you do?
if any of those were answered yes, there may be an issue at hand

+1 very well said