Wall of shame???

[JayR]

Since this longtime issue is not stopping in our community, this seems to be directed as a deterrent for future cases.

i.e. Post as many previous cases, fully researched or not, to show that they are willing to post future cases. Warn that your families will be affected as well.

To protect the safety and general welfare of members of various Jewish communities, it is necessary to provide a public database of alleged sex offenders. Research strongly suggests that the availability of such a database significantly decreases the amount of sexual offenses within a particular subculture. The fear of being publicly caught and ousted serves as a significant deterrent for potential abusers within our community. The designation of a person as an alleged sexual offender by JCW is neither a sentence nor a punishment, but simply a status resulting from the factual awareness of the commission of certain offenses by certain individuals, with corroborating evidence of both incidences and individuals collected from additional sources. 

[AnonymousUser]

I'm just waiting for the libel lawsuits to start.

[ual902]

I'm just waiting for the libel lawsuits to start.

No one on Jewish community Watch ever sued.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

I'm just waiting for the libel lawsuits to start.

Small price to pay to protect our children.

[AnonymousUser]

Small price to pay to protect our children.

So you believe that it's ok for an anonymous organization with unknown criteria to post names and addresses on the off chance that it will protect someone. Interesting. I'm just trying now to recall all the others that believed the end justifies the means.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

So you believe that it's ok for an anonymous organization with unknown criteria to post names and addresses on the off chance that it will protect someone. Interesting. I'm just trying now to recall all the others that believed the end justifies the means.

Anyone can sue for anything.

The Catholic church already went through this. We should learn from our mistakes and not commit them again. We don't live in a perfect society and some will be wrongly accused. It's unfortunate but the alternative is unacceptable.

[JayR]

Rabbi Stulberger: What educators should know about sexual abuse

[ShlockDoc]

So you believe that it's ok for an anonymous organization with unknown criteria to post names and addresses on the off chance that it will protect someone. Interesting. I'm just trying now to recall all the others that believed the end justifies the means.

It's become clear over the past few years that unfortunately rabbis have covered up sexual abuse of children and as a result many many children have been abused.  Maybe this organization is the pendulum swinging in the opposite direction which needs to happen in order to reach a normal equilibrium. 

[yuneeq]

well, there actually already was one guy who commited suicide bec of JCW.

Everyone heard one side of the story and is ready to join the mob

i happen to know info about this case and Sima told some actual lies, twisted the truth to fit her story, and left thing unsaid or open ended so people could draw conclusions that JCW wants them too.

She bashed the Rabbanim - and she was not telling the full truth.
the rabbanim asked her if she wants to bring charges and the family decided against it.
the rabbanim then made a plan for this guy. therapy. leave the community, never have a job with youth. ....
he did all that.

is there a concept of teshuva in judaism? if a guy does something horrible but then does everything the Rabbis tell him to do, can this always be thrown back in his face?

JCW is claiming that they did 18 months of research - absolutely not true!
they are claiming that they are saving the community by putting him on the wall of shame, however there are rabbis that are working with him that know he is not a danger to the community. he wont abuse more kids and is not in a position to fall into that trap again. Yet JCW decided their agenda is more important and put him up anyways.
if its not toeles, how is this not absolute lashon hara?

when they first put him up there, they posted his home address!!

thats not to mention the collateral damage that happens. siblings and cousins of the guy that get turned down for shidduchim bec people "heard things" about the family. among other stuff

what the guy did was horrible and wrong and terrible. but if he took the steps he was supposed to, is he never supposed to have a life or a job? go to shul?.... its now 10 years later

and im sure people will say once an abuser always an abuser...
but theres more to every story then that. there are times that its a one time thing. if rules are put into place that he never has a chance to develop a close relationship with a teenage girl again coupled with therapy then he is not a danger to the public anymore and shouldnt be on the wall of shame (in this specific case)

beyond this specific story, i think that the only names that should go on the wall of shame, are people that are currently a danger to children. otherwise its just tabloids and fodder for gossip and that has no place in a jewish run org.

*i know its my first post, i didnt want to post under my reg username. if an admin needs to make sure im not a troll im happy to verify myself

IMHO, once a child abuser always a child abuser.
I don't think it's a natural desire for a regular person to abuse someone.
So if someone has that tendency within them to abuse kids, there's no reason to jeans them around kids.

That being said, I don't see why an organization like this can't have more transparency.
Both as to their methods of determining who to put up there, and to put their names behind their decisions.

The lack of transparency shows a lack of faith in their decisions, and that's why I wouldn't endorse them at this point. And no, I don't believe we should strive for a system where the innocent get hurt along with the guilty, when that can easily be prevented. Imagine if the U.S. executed people that had 90% or even 95% chance of being a murderer. I would not be okay with it.

[Achas Veachas]

That being said, I don't see why an organization like this can't have more transparency.
Both as to their methods of determining who to put up there, and to put their names behind their decisions.

The lack of transparency shows a lack of faith in their decisions, and that's why I wouldn't endorse them at this point. And no, I don't believe we should strive for a system where the innocent get hurt along with the guilty, when that can easily be prevented. Imagine if the U.S. executed people that had 90% or even 95% chance of being a murderer. I would not be okay with it.

Well said.

[AnonymousUser]

IMHO, once a child abuser always a child abuser.
I don't think it's a natural desire for a regular person to abuse someone.
So if someone has that tendency within them to abuse kids, there's no reason to jeans them around kids.

That being said, I don't see why an organization like this can't have more transparency.
Both as to their methods of determining who to put up there, and to put their names behind their decisions.

The lack of transparency shows a lack of faith in their decisions, and that's why I wouldn't endorse them at this point. And no, I don't believe we should strive for a system where the innocent get hurt along with the guilty, when that can easily be prevented. Imagine if the U.S. executed people that had 90% or even 95% chance of being a murderer. I would not be okay with it.

Lately, with DNA testing, it's being revealed more and more that states have executed the wrong person. The law only requires that it be beyond a reasonable doubt, not that it be 100% positive. There's a reason that Bais Din never killed anyone.

[Achas Veachas]

It's become clear over the past few years that unfortunately rabbis have covered up sexual abuse of children and as a result many many children have been abused.  Maybe this organization is the pendulum swinging in the opposite direction which needs to happen in order to reach a normal equilibrium. 

How far to the other side does the pendulum have to swing? Is it too much to ask for transparency? A statement like this does very little to win over skeptics...

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Lately, with DNA testing, it's being revealed more and more that states have executed the wrong person. The law only requires that it be beyond a reasonable doubt, not that it be 100% positive. There's a reason that Bais Din never killed anyone.

What if down the road we find out DNA is not all that it is cracked up to be?

[ShlockDoc]

What if down the road we find out DNA is not all that it is cracked up to be?

That and no system is perfect. There will always be collateral damage when preventing bad people from hurting us. That's life. Innocent Palestinian children sometimes get killed so that good people can stop bad people.

[ShlockDoc]

Lately, with DNA testing, it's being revealed more and more that states have executed the wrong person. The law only requires that it be beyond a reasonable doubt, not that it be 100% positive. There's a reason that Bais Din never killed anyone.

Bes din killed plenty of people and Anshei kneses hagdolah went through periods of corruption. No system is perfect when humans are involved.

[AnonymousUser]

Bes din killed plenty of people.

Sorry, I should have written "rarely".

Anshei kneses hagdolah went through periods of corruption. No system is perfect when humans are involved.

That doesn't mean we should perpetuate that corruption.

[SBS]

BH I wasn't molested, so I can't talk from experience, but all these discussions are good and fine when we are dealing with monetary damages etc, but when you are dealing with a matter of life and death, pikuach nefesh, the Torah clearly states that even when in doubt, you should do whatever is needed to save a life. In this case, if there is a reason to believe someone is molesting kids, and even more so if kids come and say so, then there is a Halachic obligation to report it to the police, and they will do their investigation, and if the guy is innocent - BH, and if he is guilty - at least we prevented him from damaging other people.

That's my NSHO

[ShlockDoc]

That doesn't mean we should perpetuate that corruption.

Imperfection <> Corruption

[Menachem613]

well, there actually already was one guy who commited suicide bec of JCW.

Everyone heard one side of the story and is ready to join the mob

i happen to know info about this case and Sima told some actual lies, twisted the truth to fit her story, and left thing unsaid or open ended so people could draw conclusions that JCW wants them too.

She bashed the Rabbanim - and she was not telling the full truth.
the rabbanim asked her if she wants to bring charges and the family decided against it.
the rabbanim then made a plan for this guy. therapy. leave the community, never have a job with youth. ....
he did all that.

is there a concept of teshuva in judaism? if a guy does something horrible but then does everything the Rabbis tell him to do, can this always be thrown back in his face?

JCW is claiming that they did 18 months of research - absolutely not true!
they are claiming that they are saving the community by putting him on the wall of shame, however there are rabbis that are working with him that know he is not a danger to the community. he wont abuse more kids and is not in a position to fall into that trap again. Yet JCW decided their agenda is more important and put him up anyways.
if its not toeles, how is this not absolute lashon hara?

when they first put him up there, they posted his home address!!

thats not to mention the collateral damage that happens. siblings and cousins of the guy that get turned down for shidduchim bec people "heard things" about the family. among other stuff

what the guy did was horrible and wrong and terrible. but if he took the steps he was supposed to, is he never supposed to have a life or a job? go to shul?.... its now 10 years later

and im sure people will say once an abuser always an abuser...
but theres more to every story then that. there are times that its a one time thing. if rules are put into place that he never has a chance to develop a close relationship with a teenage girl again coupled with therapy then he is not a danger to the public anymore and shouldnt be on the wall of shame (in this specific case)

beyond this specific story, i think that the only names that should go on the wall of shame, are people that are currently a danger to children. otherwise its just tabloids and fodder for gossip and that has no place in a jewish run org.

*i know its my first post, i didnt want to post under my reg username. if an admin needs to make sure im not a troll im happy to verify myself

Who is going to determine if the offender is a danger to commit the crime again? The rabbis??

It's funny how we all made fun of the priests and couldn't stop making fun of the Catholics. We've come full circle.

[yuneeq]

BH I wasn't molested, so I can't talk from experience, but all these discussions are good and fine when we are dealing with monetary damages etc, but when you are dealing with a matter of life and death, pikuach nefesh, the Torah clearly states that even when in doubt, you should do whatever is needed to save a life. In this case, if there is a reason to believe someone is molesting kids, and even more so if kids come and say so, then there is a Halachic obligation to report it to the police, and they will do their investigation, and if the guy is innocent - BH, and if he is guilty - at least we prevented him from damaging other people.

That's my NSHO

Well, I can agree to that.
The only problem is that they're doing much more than that.