Wall of shame???

[aygart]

That and no system is perfect. There will always be collateral damage when preventing bad people from hurting us. That's life. Innocent Palestinian children sometimes get killed so that good people can stop bad people.

that doesn't mean that Gaza should be nuked. A false accusation that is publicized with abandon can destroy a whole family. This can cause those covering things up to say that the covered up case is collateral damage preventing bad people from hurting us. That can make it yatza scharo bihefsedo. The last is to find the proper balance. The first step to that is transparency.

[SBS]

Well, I can agree to that.
The only problem is that they're doing much more than that.

So, let's crystallize the "hot" issue here, the only problem is the "wall of shame" because of lack of transparency, etc. however regarding the awareness of the issue, bringing it to the forefront, etc. we agree that JCW is doing a good job.

Since I don't know their criteria, I can't voice an opinion whether it is good or bad, and the only thing I can say is 'look at the results,' if the result is 'less molestation' - then it's beneficial, if the result is 'same amount of molestation' - then it's not beneficial.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

If JCW gets individuals to talk about this issue it is a big plus.

[Menachem613]

that doesn't mean that Gaza should be nuked. A false accusation that is publicized with abandon can destroy a whole family. This can cause those covering things up to say that the covered up case is collateral damage preventing bad people from hurting us. That can make it yatza scharo bihefsedo. The last is to find the proper balance. The first step to that is transparency.

What percentage of Frum people accused of sexual abuse are determined to be false?

[sky121]

is there a concept of teshuva in judaism? if a guy does something horrible but then does everything the Rabbis tell him to do, can this always be thrown back in his face?

Yes, unfortunately with these type of things it can.
He can never work around children anymore, most have to register as a sex offender wherever they go etc.


 

and im sure people will say once an abuser always an abuser...
but theres more to every story then that. there are times that its a one time thing. if rules are put into place that he never has a chance to develop a close relationship with a teenage girl again coupled with therapy then he is not a danger to the public anymore and shouldnt be on the wall of shame (in this specific case)

beyond this specific story, i think that the only names that should go on the wall of shame, are people that are currently a danger to children. otherwise its just tabloids and fodder for gossip and that has no place in a jewish run org.

How are you to decide who is currently a danger?
 Unfortunately with this type of thing there is safety in people knowing.

Especially in a world where people are hesitant to press charges and things are kept hushed.

You know how many people who were accused of something moved cities and started working in another school all over again?
Plenty.   It happens all the time.

How many other crimes that you commit follow you in the same way having to register as a sex offender does? Not many.
There is a reason for that.

[Yehuda57]

I think this is required reading on the subject of JCW:

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/what-i-learned-from-levi-moscowitz/

[sky121]

If JCW gets individuals to talk about this issue it is a big plus.

+1000

  I don't know how well they research things. It's a really hard thing to do.   With some cases at the end of the day it's going to be just 2 individuals and picking who you believe with no evidence at all.

 But the fact that they are making the issues at hand public and hopefully allowing for it to be acceptable to speak up?
That is fantastic. First Jewish org I have seen do this in the way they are accomplishing.

[Achas Veachas]

So, let's crystallize the "hot" issue here, the only problem is the "wall of shame" because of lack of transparency, etc. however regarding the awareness of the issue, bringing it to the forefront, etc. we agree that JCW is doing a good job.

Since I don't know their criteria, I can't voice an opinion whether it is good or bad, and the only thing I can say is 'look at the results,' if the result is 'less molestation' - then it's beneficial, if the result is 'same amount of molestation' - then it's not beneficial.

That's exactly the issue...

[Sport]

+1000

  I don't know how well they research things. It's a really hard thing to do.   With some cases at the end of the day it's going to be just 2 individuals and picking who you believe with no evidence at all.

 But the fact that they are making the issues at hand public and hopefully allowing for it to be acceptable to speak up?
That is fantastic. First Jewish org I have seen do this in the way they are accomplishing.

Ever hear of Amudim? They have a very simialiar goal. Imho, they're taking a more pragamatic approach, although the proof will be in the results.

[sky121]

Ever hear of Amudim? They have a very simialiar goal. Imho, they're taking a more pragamatic approach, although the proof will be in the results.

Maybe.

But no, I haven't heard of them.

And no one I've ever discussed JCW with has either.

So with the idea of bringing information to people and helping the community feel like it's accepted and alright to take action JCW seems to be doing a much better job.


Meanwhile, they should all be successful!

[aygart]

What percentage of Frum people accused of sexual abuse are determined to be false?

what percentage are determined definitively either way? How many are determined to be false and therefore no one heard about them?

[Mordyk]

Fact: some people on that list are NOT guilty contrary to what the media says.
Fact: many innocent people and their families will be ashamed by this.

so who are we to judge whose life is more important?

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Fact: many people on that list are NOT guilty contrary to what the media says.

How do you know this?

[Sport]

Maybe.

But no, I haven't heard of them.

And no one I've ever discussed JCW with has either.

So with the idea of bringing information to people and helping the community feel like it's accepted and alright to take action JCW seems to be doing a much better job.


Meanwhile, they should all be successful!

Amen! I think they're a relatively new organization. So we'll have to wait and see.

[elit]

Fact: many people on that list are NOT guilty contrary to what the media says.
Fact: many innocent people and their families will be ashamed by this.

so who are we to judge whose life is more important?

Please provide support to your "fact"

[sky121]

There is no black and white perfect answer.

Is there a chance that people on the wall of Shame are innocent? Yes.
Are there innocent people in jail? Yes.

With the fear of possibly ruining someone's life we consciously decide to definitely ruin others.
That makes no sense.


I am in NO WAY belittling the idea of what horror could happen to an innocent man. It's a scary world out there.


But shouldn't the children be the main focus?
And then the ways to do the job as best possibly humans can so that someone innocent doesn't get destroyed be secondary?

[yuneeq]

Something to consider, is how many people are they actually exposing?

Let's say their list has 100 people, it could be that 50 of them are well-known molesters, 40 are not so well-known, and 10 are just being accused falsely. (All numbers are completely made up for sake of discussion.)
So for the first 50 guys they didn't help expose anything, because everyone is already aware of them.
For the 2nd group of guys they brought awareness which is extremely important, but only by destroying the families of the last 10.

That would mean that they could actually wrongly hurt 20% of the people that their job is to expose.

Would that price be worth it?

[dealfinder85]

Something to consider, is how many people are they actually exposing?

Let's say their list has 100 people, it could be that 50 of them are well-known molesters, 40 are not so well-known, and 10 are just being accused falsely. (All numbers are completely made up for sake of discussion.)
So for the first 50 guys they didn't help expose anything, because everyone is already aware of them.
For the 2nd group of guys they brought awareness which is extremely important, but only by destroying the families of the last 10.
That would mean that they could actually wrongly hurt 20% of the people that their job is to expose.

Would that price be worth it?

pointless question, since you made up the numbers
maybe the percentage is 3% maybe its 60%

[elit]

What percentage of Frum people accused of sexual abuse are determined to be false?

Dont know the answer specifically about frum ppl but i remember reading in txt book that studies have shown that children almost never make up accusations like this dont remember the exact percentage but it was well over 90%

[sky121]

Something to consider, is how many people are they actually exposing?

Let's say their list has 100 people, it could be that 50 of them are well-known molesters, 40 are not so well-known, and 10 are just being accused falsely. (All numbers are completely made up for sake of discussion.)
So for the first 50 guys they didn't help expose anything, because everyone is already aware of them.
For the 2nd group of guys they brought awareness which is extremely important, but only by destroying the families of the last 10.

That would mean that they could actually wrongly hurt 20% of the people that their job is to expose.

Would that price be worth it?

Who should we ask? The families? The children? The victims families?

And what does the number have to be for you to say yes, or no?

I don't think there is a straight answer.