Poll

Is the wall of shame of JCW necessary?

Yes
25 (36.2%)
No
10 (14.5%)
Its complicated
34 (49.3%)

Total Members Voted: 68

Author Topic: Wall of shame???  (Read 47475 times)

Offline benjie1305

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Re: Wall of shame???
« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2015, 10:59:47 AM »
There is no black and white perfect answer.

Is there a chance that people on the wall of Shame are innocent? Yes.
Are there innocent people in jail? Yes.

With the fear of possibly ruining someone's life we consciously decide to definitely ruin others.
That makes no sense.


I am in NO WAY belittling the idea of what horror could happen to an innocent man. It's a scary world out there.


But shouldn't the children be the main focus?
And then the ways to do the job as best possibly humans can so that someone innocent doesn't get destroyed be secondary?

Agreed.

I think that if children are reporting anything of the sort, it should be reported and investigated. Law enforcement is not doing this for the first time and when they conclude their investigation, the results of it can be used to establish "the law" against those people. If guilty then treat accordingly.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Wall of shame???
« Reply #61 on: March 26, 2015, 10:59:54 AM »
this is more detailed of what i meant
IMHO most would agree so we are on the same page.
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Offline Mordyk

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Re: Wall of shame???
« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2015, 11:00:58 AM »
pointless question, since you made up the numbers
maybe the percentage is 3% maybe its 60%

so who are we to judge whose life is more important????
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Wall of shame???
« Reply #63 on: March 26, 2015, 11:01:30 AM »
pointless question, since you made up the numbers
maybe the percentage is 3% maybe its 60%

Unfortunately due to the lack of transparency, the numbers have to be made up.
It's not unfair to assume a number that doesn't seem so far fetched when there is absolutely no proof against many of the people posted on the site.
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Offline sky121

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Re: Wall of shame???
« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2015, 11:02:33 AM »
Unfortunately due to the lack of transparency, the numbers have to be made up.
So it's not unfair to assume a number that doesn't seem so far fetched when there is absolutely no proof against many of the people posted on the site.

There isn't PROOF for most of the scenarios. Proof isn't always available.
That's why we have trials and people investigating.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Wall of shame???
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2015, 11:03:40 AM »
There isn't PROOF for most of the scenarios. Proof isn't always available.
That's why we have trials and people investigating.

Should someone under trial deserve to be on a wall of shame?
Why not wait for the trial to be over?

ETA: Also, there may not be any proof, but there should at least be an accusation if you're going to shame someone.
At the very least someone must put their name as the accuser to put someone on a wall of shame.
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Offline dealfinder85

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Re: Wall of shame???
« Reply #66 on: March 26, 2015, 11:05:48 AM »
Should someone under trial deserve to be on a wall of shame?
Why not wait for the trial to be over?
im not taking a side, just throwing something out there
if im completely wrong, shoot me down immediately please
the ppl who make it to trial are very rarely ppl who are completely unblemished.  something shady probably happened for someone to make it to trial. you didnt say rumors, you said trial. 
 

Offline sky121

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Re: Wall of shame???
« Reply #67 on: March 26, 2015, 11:06:48 AM »
Should someone under trial deserve to be on a wall of shame?
Why not wait for the trial to be over?

I don't know what I think. Truth is once his name is out there unfortunately he is being harmed even if he is innocent. Should we risk others safety? Will someone else see his name and come forward with a story as well?



 

These are all good questions. And I don't think the answers are easy or foolproof.


My question again is why is this the FIRST thing we are discussing? Why is this everyones FIRST concern?
Why wasn't the post about the evil things happening in the community? And the fact that it's taken so long for it to even start to become acceptable for people to come forward?
Why wasn't the post about what we can do to prevent this? Or signs to look for? ETC ETC ETC?

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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Wall of shame???
« Reply #68 on: March 26, 2015, 11:07:18 AM »
im not taking a side, just throwing something out there
if im completely wrong, shoot me down immediately please
the ppl who make it to trial are very rarely ppl who are completely unblemished.  something shady probably happened for someone to make it to trial. you didnt say rumors, you said trial.

I'm not unblemished and neither are most (read: all) people I know.
So that makes us all child molesters?
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Offline sky121

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Re: Wall of shame???
« Reply #69 on: March 26, 2015, 11:07:53 AM »
im not taking a side, just throwing something out there
if im completely wrong, shoot me down immediately please
the ppl who make it to trial are very rarely ppl who are completely unblemished.  something shady probably happened for someone to make it to trial. you didnt say rumors, you said trial.

That may be true. But some are innocent. Completely.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Wall of shame???
« Reply #70 on: March 26, 2015, 11:07:58 AM »
http://tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/138918/jewish-community-watch

"Then Seewald made a major error. In August 2012, a special-education teacher named Daniel Granovetter wrote a since-deleted personal account on a Crown Heights news site, titled “I Was Falsely Accused,” describing how he was arrested after an autistic boy he tutored accused him of abuse, though the investigation was eventually dropped when the child retracted his claim. “In people’s eyes I was no longer a Jew, let alone a human being,” Granovetter wrote in a harrowing account. “I was regarded as a monster, an out-of-control filthy, dangerous beast capable of snatching little children and sexually abusing them.”

Granovetter told me Seewald confronted him outside his home “rather aggressively,” demanding Granovetter confess to molesting the child. When Granovetter refused, he was featured on the JCW Wall of Shame, which he said has destroyed his career and social standing.

Shortly after the incident, Seewald removed Granovetter’s name and picture from the blog, releasing a statement that there was insufficient evidence against the teacher. Granovetter, who told me over the phone that forgiveness is his nature, removed his story criticizing JCW from the news site and replaced it with one praising Seewald’s work, placing blame on the student who falsely accused him rather than JCW. Seewald admitted to me that it was a mistake to confront Granovetter when there was a police investigation under way, but like Granovetter’s reputation, JCW’s credibility never fully recovered from the debacle."
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Offline SBS

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Re: Wall of shame???
« Reply #71 on: March 26, 2015, 11:08:20 AM »
Please read the first 22 pesukim of Shmuel II Perek 13:
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15873/jewish/Chapter-13.htm

It presents a scenario of molestation, the reaction of the molested girl, the reaction of those who said "don't publicize it, it will ruin the family" and the reaction of the girl's father, who got angry when he heard that statement.

Those who know hebrew well, please read the following article which explains the Halachos surrounding this issue, publicizing etc.

http://therabbiofthesurvivors.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_22.html
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Wall of shame???
« Reply #72 on: March 26, 2015, 11:09:00 AM »
My question again is why is this the FIRST thing we are discussing? Why is this everyones FIRST concern?
Why wasn't the post about the evil things happening in the community? And the fact that it's taken so long for it to even start to become acceptable for people to come forward?
Why wasn't the post about what we can do to prevent this? Or signs to look for? ETC ETC ETC?
Because many don't want to believe it is happening.
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Offline dealfinder85

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Re: Wall of shame???
« Reply #73 on: March 26, 2015, 11:10:19 AM »
I'm not unblemished and neither are most (read: all) people I know.
So that makes us all child molesters?
how in the world did you conclude that from my post?
you are not unblemished, meaning, you and all ppl you know have done things that could be misconstrued for molestation? then ya, i would stay away from you

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Wall of shame???
« Reply #74 on: March 26, 2015, 11:11:30 AM »
I don't know what I think. Truth is once his name is out there unfortunately he is being harmed even if he is innocent. Should we risk others safety? Will someone else see his name and come forward with a story as well?



 

These are all good questions. And I don't think the answers are easy or foolproof.


My question again is why is this the FIRST thing we are discussing? Why is this everyones FIRST concern?
Why wasn't the post about the evil things happening in the community? And the fact that it's taken so long for it to even start to become acceptable for people to come forward?
Why wasn't the post about what we can do to prevent this? Or signs to look for? ETC ETC ETC?


This is the thing we are discussing, because that is the focus of the organization, shaming people.

I think everyone agrees that we need more awareness about these bad issues in the first place and that's why no one is arguing about that.
We can have everyone here just quote my line and +1 it to death but it won't make for an interesting discussion.
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Offline moshe87

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Re: Wall of shame???
« Reply #75 on: March 26, 2015, 11:13:49 AM »


My question again is why is this the FIRST thing we are discussing? Why is this everyones FIRST concern?
Why wasn't the post about the evil things happening in the community? And the fact that it's taken so long for it to even start to become acceptable for people to come forward?
Why wasn't the post about what we can do to prevent this? Or signs to look for? ETC ETC ETC?


BH

We all agree that this epidemic must stop and as a community we must work to heal the sick within us, and provide support to those who were hurt.

The Baal Shem Tov went around for the sole purpose of getting Jews to say, baruch (drawing down) Hashem into our lives.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Wall of shame???
« Reply #76 on: March 26, 2015, 11:14:09 AM »
how in the world did you conclude that from my post?
im not taking a side, just throwing something out there
if im completely wrong, shoot me down immediately please
the ppl who make it to trial are very rarely ppl who are completely unblemished.  something shady probably happened for someone to make it to trial. you didnt say rumors, you said trial.

I responded based on what you said, not based on what you clarified.
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Offline sky121

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Re: Wall of shame???
« Reply #77 on: March 26, 2015, 11:14:19 AM »

This is the thing we are discussing, because that is the focus of the organization, shaming people.

I think everyone agrees that we need more awareness about these bad issues in the first place and that's why no one is arguing about that.
We can have everyone here just quote my line and +1 it to death but it won't make for an interesting discussion.

I've never been to any of their official programs so I don't know but I didn't get the feeling that bashing was their number one priority. I know they have the wall of shame but anytime I've heard anyone speak it was to encourage others to speak up and to help victims feel like they have a voice.

Is this incorrect?
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Offline aygart

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Re: Wall of shame???
« Reply #78 on: March 26, 2015, 11:16:36 AM »
There is no black and white perfect answer.

Is there a chance that people on the wall of Shame are innocent? Yes.
Are there innocent people in jail? Yes.

With the fear of possibly ruining someone's life we consciously decide to definitely ruin others.
That makes no sense.


I am in NO WAY belittling the idea of what horror could happen to an innocent man. It's a scary world out there.


But shouldn't the children be the main focus?
And then the ways to do the job as best possibly humans can so that someone innocent doesn't get destroyed be secondary?
What about the children of the falsely accused?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline dealfinder85

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Re: Wall of shame???
« Reply #79 on: March 26, 2015, 11:16:49 AM »
I responded based on what you said, not based on what you clarified.
you thought i meant completely unblemished in general? who can say say they are completely unblemished?