G-Dless vs Religious - what's worse?

[zale]

Had this heated debate last week around my Shabbos table. What is [or has been] worse for society and for Jews: less religion or more religion?

The big candidates that came up for the less religion argument are Hitler, Stalin, Haman?, Amalek?, perverted society.

The big candidates that came up for the more religion argument are the Spanish Inquisition, blood libels, pogroms, Islamic extremism.

It would appear that both parties hate the Jews equally. As for society, does it crumble more without a moral compass (i.e. G-D), or does religious oppression prevent society from moving forward? (The argument here is that clergy are often opposed to scientific experiments.)

Religion encourages building a stable family, whereas G-Dlessness tends to encourage the opposite. Now that people are becoming less and less affiliated with religion, will our society stay the same or get worse?

[Emkay]

Had this heated debate last week around my Shabbos table. What is [or has been] worse for society and for Jews: less religion or more religion?

The big candidates that came up for the less religion argument are Hitler, Stalin, Haman?, Amalek?, perverted society.

The big candidates that came up for the more religion argument are the Spanish Inquisition, blood libels, pogroms, Islamic extremism.

It would appear that both parties hate the Jews equally. As for society, does it crumble more without a moral compass (i.e. G-D), or does religious oppression prevent society from moving forward? (The argument here is that clergy are often opposed to scientific experiments.)

Religion encourages building a stable family, whereas G-Dlessness tends to encourage the opposite. Now that people are becoming less and less affiliated with religion, will our society stay the same or get worse?

Stupid idea - stupid Arguments- stupid thread

[ChaimMoskowitz]

What's the chances of this not going PC?

I will go out on a limb and say that religion in its basic form is a good thing.

[maxie m]

Wouldn't the famous mashal of the sun and the wind answer your question

[zale]

What's the chances of this not going PC?

I will go out on a limb and say that religion in its basic form is a good thing.

Very well, but we are talking more matter-of-fact. When you read an op-ed on a liberal wesite about why people should not get married, or why people should have an open marriage, what goes through your mind? "Our society is going downhill", or "let it be, this is better than Islamic extremism"?

[maxie m]

Also I don't know if I'd use Hitler and even haman to categorize the first side being that they tried to destroy jewry which only caused to isolate them and not infect them with their perverted ideas as, take for example yavan etc... If I understood your question correctly

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Very well, but we are talking more matter-of-fact. When you read an op-ed on a liberal wesite about why people should not get married, or why people should have an open marriage, what goes through your mind? "Our society is going downhill", or "let it be, this is better than Islamic extremism"?

That are value system is broke.

Now if the question is open marriage or religious extremist I would have to go with open marriage.

[zale]

That are value system is broke.

Now if the question is open marriage or religious extremist I would have to go with open marriage.

Would a value system exist in a G-Dless society?

[thaber]

He makes your case. Not sure if I agree. there is a book excerpt on the listing http://www.amazon.com/Americas-Real-Rabbi-Daniel-Lapin-ebook/dp/B0073579AO/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

[maxie m]

Would a value system exist in a G-Dless society?

wouldn't that depend somewhat on whether society was trying to blend you in our not

[Emkay]

Very well, but we are talking more matter-of-fact. When you read an op-ed on a liberal wesite about why people should not get married, or why people should have an open marriage, what goes through your mind? "Our society is going downhill", or "let it be, this is better than Islamic extremism"?

Do you want answers or do you want a ridiculous debate? If the former then I can direct you to the places that can answer you

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Would a value system exist in a G-Dless society?

Interesting question. You don't need to believe in G-d to have values but I guess the next question would be what are they based on.

[zale]

Also I don't know if I'd use Hitler and even haman to categorize the first side being that they tried to destroy jewry which only caused to isolate them and not infect them with their perverted ideas as, take for example yavan etc... If I understood your question correctly

Yavan is more exclusive. They had some type of weird idol worship/perversion thing going on. Many would argue that Hitler wielded so much power because it was in absence of a belief in a supernal power (i.e. G-D).

[zale]

Do you want answers or do you want a ridiculous debate? If the former then I can direct you to the places that can answer you

What are you still doing here? Haven't you already stated that this is a stupid thread a few posts earlier?

[ChaimMoskowitz]

He makes your case. Not sure if I agree. there is a book excerpt on the listing http://www.amazon.com/Americas-Real-Rabbi-Daniel-Lapin-ebook/dp/B0073579AO/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

Have you read this book? Would you recommend it?

[Emkay]

What are you still doing here? Haven't you already stated that this is a stupid thread a few posts earlier?

I still maintain my position that it's a stupid idea, I am simply offering my services for thr slight chance you really are interested in answers

[thaber]

Have you read this book? Would you recommend it?

I read it about 15 years ago. IIRC In a general sense I found it intriguing,  and he's a smart guy.  I wasn't convinced he's right,  but he made a good case.

[Aj3042]

Would a value system exist in a G-Dless society?

An old question. And yes a value system would exist but a perverted value system. As you see today in the US (and world over) that as religion leaves the values become more and more corrupted because values based purely upon what we think is right or wrong are bound to fail.

[zale]

An old question. And yes a value system would exist but a perverted value system. As you see today in the US (and world over) that as religion leaves the values become more and more corrupted because values based purely upon what we think is right or wrong are bound to fail.

The problem is that a hijacked G-Dly value system can be just as bad as a G-Dless value system. Which leads back to the original question: are we really worse off now that society is becoming more and more Atheist?

[thaber]

now that society is becoming more and more Atheist?

says who?