Author Topic: Which gebrokst foods would you miss?  (Read 9461 times)

Offline imayid2

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Re: Which gebrokst foods would you miss?
« Reply #120 on: April 16, 2023, 02:06:26 AM »
never heard of these 2 things. sources please?
1) not sure what you mean, a source that eating without kiddush is different than being מקיים the din of kiddush? They are just different, not sure how itís possible to ďnot have heard of itĒ. Being that the MB isnít talking about the eating aspect, he isnít a source to assert that you need a שעת הדחק. Itís a logical differentiation that the גדר put in place isnít as חמור as the actual מצוה.  The שער הציון brings down the opinion of the ראב״ד that there is no issur at all to eat before kiddush by day.
2) אורח חיים ד סג

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Which gebrokst foods would you miss?
« Reply #121 on: April 16, 2023, 02:13:12 AM »
1) not sure what you mean, a source that eating without kiddush is different than being מקיים the din of kiddush? They are just different, not sure how itís possible to ďnot have heard of itĒ. Being that the MB isnít talking about the eating aspect, he isnít a source to assert that you need a שעת הדחק. Itís a logical differentiation that the גדר put in place isnít as חמור as the actual מצוה.  The שער הציון brings down the opinion of the ראב״ד that there is no issur at all to eat before kiddush by day.
If it's so logical then why doesn't anyone talk about it.
I would say its logical the opposite, that one needs kiddush to eat and to eat a seuda to be yotzei kiddush so they go hand in hand.
Again, maybe you can be eat B'shaas Hadchak like the Raaved but that's exactly what we are discussing, if wine is l'chtcheila or not.
2) אורח חיים ד סג
thanks i'll check it out

Offline imayid2

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Re: Which gebrokst foods would you miss?
« Reply #122 on: April 16, 2023, 02:27:29 AM »
why doesn't anyone talk about it.
Because it is so pashut.
I would say its logical the opposite, that one needs kiddush to eat and to eat a seuda to be yotzei kiddush so they go hand in hand.
They go hand in hand, but it's logical to say that i'll consider wine as a סעודה in regards the the lesser issue of eating, and i'll be machmir that it isn't in regard to the חיוב קידוש.
Again, maybe you can be eat B'shaas Hadchak like the Raaved but that's exactly what we are discussing, if wine is l'chtcheila or not.
בשעת הדחק is without the ראב"ד. Because the MB isn't discussing a case where the ראב"ד would be applicable, and in out discussion it is, he is not a valid source to say he'd only allow בשעת הדחק.

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Re: Which gebrokst foods would you miss?
« Reply #123 on: April 16, 2023, 07:49:47 AM »
He did this?
Not that I am aware of.

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Which gebrokst foods would you miss?
« Reply #124 on: April 16, 2023, 09:44:10 AM »
2) אורח חיים ד סג
OK. It's a really long Tshuva and i didn't go through all of it but i did skim it. Thank you for the informative Tshuva!

1) It obviously is not so poshut if it took R' Moshe 10 pages to explain the difference between Kiddush for eating and Kiddush for being Yotzei the chiuv of Kiddush. I think this is a huge chiddush of R' Moshe and i've never heard of it before.
2) Even according to R' Moshe one would still need to make Kiddush again by the Seuda. Does everyone who makes kiddush b'makom seuda with wine do that?
3) I didn't see anywhere (again, i skimmed, so correctl me if i'm wrong) that R' Moshe says that according to R' Akiva Eiger who says that wine is not considered "b'makom seuda" would say that for being yotzei the kiddush of eating it would be ok.
4) As an aside, we really have to know if grape juice is included in wine.

And finally, the Mishnah Brura says clearly that being Yotzei "b'Makom Seuda" with wine is Shas Hadchak multiple times. I don't think we can say something that he doesn't like is L'Chatcheila.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Which gebrokst foods would you miss?
« Reply #125 on: April 16, 2023, 09:56:16 AM »
2) Even according to R' Moshe one would still need to make Kiddush again by the Seuda. Does everyone who makes kiddush b'makom seuda with wine do that?
I assume most do. If they donít, they should.
3) I didn't see anywhere (again, i skimmed, so correctl me if i'm wrong) that R' Moshe says that according to R' Akiva Eiger who says that wine is not considered "b'makom seuda" would say that for being yotzei the kiddush of eating it would be ok.
Indeed he doesnít. That isnít the subject of his discussion.

רע״א doesnít say it isnít considered במקום סעודה. He says itís a תלוי במחלוקת. Although he appears to indicate ďwe paskenĒ it wouldnít be considered as such, we do not know what he would say in regards to using it merely to eat which is less chamur. We can only speculate, and even if he wouldnít of liked it, we donít know if the MB who is חושש for רע״א would be חושש that far.
And finally, the Mishnah Brura says clearly that being Yotzei "b'Makom Seuda" with wine is Shas Hadchak multiple times. I don't think we can say something that he doesn't like is L'Chatcheila.
This is a fallacy as he says that in regards to fulfilling your obligation of kiddush in full, not when youíre just using it to eat. This is getting repetitive.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Which gebrokst foods would you miss?
« Reply #126 on: April 16, 2023, 11:02:58 AM »
If it's so logical then why doesn't anyone talk about it.
It is noted by רב יצחק אלחנן regarding being יוצא with beer (which is worse than wine).
עין יצחק סימן י״ב


There is also perhaps reason to be more meikal regarding קידוש of יו״ט, as itís ודאי מדרבן.

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Which gebrokst foods would you miss?
« Reply #127 on: April 16, 2023, 11:06:31 AM »
This is a fallacy as he says that in regards to fulfilling your obligation of kiddush in full, not when youíre just using it to eat. This is getting repetitive.
Only according to R' Moshe is there a Chiluk. It's his Chiddush. We cannot apply him to everyone else.

I took a peek at the Dirshu M.B. and it says there that R' Elyashiv did not hold of making Kiddush and using wine as "B"S". It would seem that this is another place where the Israeli poskim are more machmir than the US ones. Maybe because they have the Gra to contend with as well who says that you must wash.

As an aside, i was schmoozing with an elderly Chabad Chassid today and he told me that the Bochurim would be sent out all over and they couldn't eat anything where they went so of course they make kiddush as wine "b"s". It would seem like Chassidim are also more leaning towards using it as well. I couldn't check a ShAr"H but the notes in the Oz Vhadar one are mashma this as well...

Any Sefardim out there? What do you do?

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Which gebrokst foods would you miss?
« Reply #128 on: April 16, 2023, 11:09:11 AM »
It is noted by רב יצחק אלחנן regarding being יוצא with beer (which is worse than wine).
עין יצחק סימן י״ב

Ok. Next year i'll just use beer instead of eating Gebrochts  ;D

There is also perhaps reason to be more meikal regarding קידוש of יו״ט, as itís ודאי מדרבן.
Takeh. That's a good point.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Which gebrokst foods would you miss?
« Reply #129 on: April 16, 2023, 11:17:23 AM »
Only according to R' Moshe is there a Chiluk. It's his Chiddush.
No, more accurately only according to Rav Moshe do you not need במקום סעודה at all in order to eat, according to everyone else itís logical to be more lenient in regards to whatís considered במקום סעודה for the איסור אכילה.

While Rav Moshe is is a chiddush lhalacha, it should be pointed out that רב נטרונאי גאון and the שר מקוצי hold very similar. So thatís another tziruf.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Which gebrokst foods would you miss?
« Reply #130 on: April 16, 2023, 11:18:15 AM »
This thread after Pesach is as appetizing as macaroons now...

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Which gebrokst foods would you miss?
« Reply #131 on: April 16, 2023, 11:29:06 AM »
This thread after Pesach is as appetizing as macaroons now...
Sorry.
Lets go back to Gebrokst foods that we would miss.
My wife made an amazing brownie this year. First Gebrochts cake i ever liked! I would have even eaten it after Pesach if i was hungry.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Which gebrokst foods would you miss?
« Reply #132 on: April 16, 2023, 11:44:23 AM »
I took a peek at the Dirshu M.B. and it says there that R' Elyashiv did not hold of making Kiddush and using wine as "B"S"
Not seeing this, though I donít have מהדורא חדשה. Do you mean grape juice?

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Which gebrokst foods would you miss?
« Reply #133 on: April 16, 2023, 01:25:16 PM »
Not seeing this, though I donít have מהדורא חדשה. Do you mean grape juice?
no, thats something else. Rav Elyashiv has an issue with wine as a seuda and even bdieved it wouldnt work with gj, only wine.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Which gebrokst foods would you miss?
« Reply #134 on: April 16, 2023, 01:26:51 PM »
Rav Elyashiv has an issue with wine as a seuda
What is their source?
ETA looked it up, he just says that mezonos is better than wine, not sure why youíd write
R' Elyashiv did not hold of making Kiddush and using wine as "B"S".
« Last Edit: April 16, 2023, 01:58:37 PM by imayid2 »