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I hear both sides. While I am fairly certain that this will ultimately have a negative effect on the kids that were there, I understand that this protest was never intended to be for their benefit but rather to protest against public chilul shabbos. Is that a fair trade-off?

I did speak with a rabbi who I consider to be one of the world's foremost experts on helping OTD kids (and I have personal experience with way too many of them), and he was vehemently against it. He felt that a protest like this will cause significantly more kids to go off, as it now created an us-vs-them mentality that until now only simmered below the surface but is now being forced on them.

12 years ago I was ordered to leave Lakewood because of a (in hindsight) very trivial incident. Do you know what that type of ostracization does to an angry teenager? It makes them angrier and more eager to do the things that caused them to be ostracized in the first place. Some of these kids may have been only testing the waters, hanging out with friends who are much more brazen than them right now. Now they feel like they there's no return. Some of these kids have friends that they will now convince to join them who otherwise were only being mechalel shabbos behind closed doors. There are plenty of kids who are currently in yeshiva and looking the part, but also engaging in all forms of illicit activities including drugs and chilul shabbos. Many of these kids will now feel emboldened to join a "community" of like minded kids. Etc etc etc.

Chop off the limb to save the body, I get that concept even if I don't agree with it. But what about anything connected to that limb? This has consequences reaching far beyond the kids that were physically being mechalel shabbos at the  lake, and I don't think anyone thought about this beyond how it would affect the protesters and the protestees.

My 2 cents.

Lakewood shabbos DO (singing kah echsof in the park, while smoking electric cigarettes using a shabbos switch

Confirmed:
Grodnoking (Need a shabbos switch for my Ecig, who can bring one?)

Probable:

Impossible:
henche


תניא פרק ל"ב

ומ"ש בגמ' שמי שרואה בחבירו שחטא מצוה לשנאותו וגם לומר לרבו שישנאהו. היינו בחבירו בתורה ומצות וכבר קיים בו מצות הוכח תוכיח את עמיתך עם שאתך בתורה ובמצות ואעפ"כ לא שב מחטאו כמ"ש בס' חרדים

 אבל מי שאינו חבירו ואינו מקורב אצלו הנה ע"ז אמר הלל הזקן הוי מתלמידיו של אהרן אוהב שלום וכו' אוהב את הבריות ומקרבן לתורה. לומר שאף הרחוקים מתורת ה' ועבודתו ולכן נקראי' בשם בריות בעלמא צריך למשכן בחבלי עבותו' אהבה וכולי האי ואולי יוכל לקרבן לתורה ועבודת ה' והן לא לא הפסיד שכר מצות אהבת ריעים

וגם המקורבים אליו והוכיחם ולא שבו מעונותיהם שמצוה לשנאותם מצוה לאהבם ג"כ ושתיהן הן אמת שנאה מצד הרע שבהם ואהבה מצד בחי' הטוב הגנוז שבהם שהוא ניצוץ אלקות שבתוכם המחיה נפשם האלקית וגם לעורר רחמים בלבו עליה כי היא בבחי' גלות בתוך הרע מס"א הגובר עליה ברשעי' והרחמנות מבטלת השנאה ומעוררת האהבה כנודע ממ"ש ליעקב אשר פדה את אברהם [ולא אמר דה"עה תכלית שנאה שנאתים וגו' אלא על המינים והאפיקורסים שאין להם חלק באלהי ישראל כדאיתא בגמרא ר"פ ט"ז דשבת]:

« Last edited by yesitsme on May 21, 2015, 12:17:47 PM »

Author Topic: Lakewood Shabbos rally  (Read 155045 times)

Offline rileywiles23

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Lakewood Shabbos rally
« on: May 17, 2015, 06:14:12 PM »
Does anybody else feel that what happened in Lakewood on Shabbos - all the singing etc. was the wrong way to go about dealing with such a situation... Here is a small clip of said event...
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2015, 06:19:01 PM »
Absolutely the wrong way to deal with it.
 
For starters;
I know a bunch of kids who hang out there one of them told me last night that some of those who were smoking there usually keep shabbos
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2015, 06:20:49 PM »

I know a bunch of kids who hang out there one of them told me last night that some of those who were smoking there usually keep shabbos
And therefore?
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר Ė יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2015, 06:25:37 PM »
And therefore?
Its causing more chillul shabbos

Secondly why are you dealing with the effect and not the root of the problem by helping them instead of further alienating them from everyone else?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline rileywiles23

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2015, 06:32:23 PM »

Its causing more chillul shabbos

Secondly why are you dealing with the effect and not the root of the problem by helping them instead of further alienating them from everyone else?
That is my exact feeling as well. All this is does, is antagonize them and cause then to spite yiddishkeit even more
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Offline coralsnake

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2015, 06:33:39 PM »
Absolutely the wrong way to deal with it.
 
For starters;
I know a bunch of kids who hang out there one of them told me last night that some of those who were smoking there usually keep shabbos
I have no idea what ls going on here.

But IIUC, there are some kids in Lakewood that hang out in a park and smoke on shabbos. So someone thought it was a good idea to "help" them by bringing the people and singing that they're trying to escape from to that park?

And what does it mean that they usually keep Shabbos? They keep Shabbos except when a mob of singing Jews come by?
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Offline sky121

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2015, 06:35:50 PM »
What was this rally all about?
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2015, 06:36:16 PM »
I have no idea what ls going on here.

But IIUC, there are some kids in Lakewood that hang out in a park and smoke on shabbos. So someone thought it was a good idea to "help" them by bringing the people and singing that they're trying to escape from to that park?

And what does it mean that they usually keep Shabbos? They keep Shabbos except when a mob of singing Jews come by?
That's basically what's happening

This is causing them to be mechalel shabbos lehachis I don't know on what level they were keeping shabbos before but they weren't smoking in public
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline sky121

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2015, 06:39:18 PM »
I have no idea what ls going on here.

But IIUC, there are some kids in Lakewood that hang out in a park and smoke on shabbos. So someone thought it was a good idea to "help" them by bringing the people and singing that they're trying to escape from to that park?



If that's really what happened that's kinda silly.  Didn't they speak to anyone with any sort of experience beforehand? Why did all those people think that would be helpful? Oy.
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Offline rileywiles23

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2015, 06:39:20 PM »

I have no idea what ls going on here.

But IIUC, there are some kids in Lakewood that hang out in a park and smoke on shabbos. So someone thought it was a good idea to "help" them by bringing the people and singing that they're trying to escape from to that park?

And what does it mean that they usually keep Shabbos? They keep Shabbos except when a mob of singing Jews come by?
The basic story is, the last few shabbosim, a bunch of Jewish teens were hanging out at the lkwd lake, and publicly desecrating Shabbos (. I don't know if this was done to spite the frum community, or they were just chilling at the lake, having a good time.) so some genius thought it was a good idea to gather a bunch of people, and walk by them singing songs etc. - I guess to send some type of message, although I can't fathom what message they were trying to convey.
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Offline tjak

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2015, 06:40:31 PM »

I have no idea what ls going on here.

But IIUC, there are some kids in Lakewood that hang out in a park and smoke on shabbos. So someone thought it was a good idea to "help" them by bringing the people and singing that they're trying to escape from to that park?

And what does it mean that they usually keep Shabbos? They keep Shabbos except when a mob of singing Jews come by?
I don't think this is about helping them. It's about trying stop them from coming to the lake which is a very public area and smoking on shabbos.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2015, 06:41:27 PM »


The basic story is, the last few shabbosim, a bunch of Jewish teens were hanging out at the lkwd lake, and publicly desecrating Shabbos (. I don't know if this was done to spite the frum community, or they were just chilling at the lake, having a good time.) so some genius thought it was a good idea to gather a bunch of people, and walk by them singing songs etc. - I guess to send some type of message, although I can't fathom what message they were trying to convey.

This has been going on for years

If anything out of respect they don't hang out in the middle of the developments they live in being mechalel shabos
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline sky121

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2015, 06:41:58 PM »
I don't think this is about helping them. It's about trying stop them from coming to the lake which is a very public area and smoking on shabbos.
Even that is likely to just backfire. Unless they're willing to go every week ...and even then.
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2015, 06:42:34 PM »
I don't think this is about helping them. It's about trying stop them from coming to the lake which is a very public area and smoking on shabbos.
Although its public its not "very public"
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline tjak

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2015, 06:43:02 PM »

Even that is likely to just backfire. Unless they're willing to go every week ...and even then.
I think that's the plan, they did it las week also.

Offline tjak

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2015, 06:43:44 PM »

Although its public its not "very public"
Public enough that you can see it from the street.

Offline sky121

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2015, 06:44:16 PM »
I think that's the plan, they did it las week also.
::)
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Offline rileywiles23

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2015, 06:44:19 PM »

I don't think this is about helping them. It's about trying stop them from coming to the lake which is a very public area and smoking on shabbos.
How exactly is this going to stop them !? It just antagonized them.
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2015, 06:44:26 PM »
Public enough that you can see it from the street.
Not as public as the middle of the developments they live in
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline tjak

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2015, 06:45:51 PM »

How exactly is this going to stop them !? It just antagonized them.
It will be a turf war for a couple weeks till they get bored of it and find a new place to chill. Hopefully more private.