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I hear both sides. While I am fairly certain that this will ultimately have a negative effect on the kids that were there, I understand that this protest was never intended to be for their benefit but rather to protest against public chilul shabbos. Is that a fair trade-off?

I did speak with a rabbi who I consider to be one of the world's foremost experts on helping OTD kids (and I have personal experience with way too many of them), and he was vehemently against it. He felt that a protest like this will cause significantly more kids to go off, as it now created an us-vs-them mentality that until now only simmered below the surface but is now being forced on them.

12 years ago I was ordered to leave Lakewood because of a (in hindsight) very trivial incident. Do you know what that type of ostracization does to an angry teenager? It makes them angrier and more eager to do the things that caused them to be ostracized in the first place. Some of these kids may have been only testing the waters, hanging out with friends who are much more brazen than them right now. Now they feel like they there's no return. Some of these kids have friends that they will now convince to join them who otherwise were only being mechalel shabbos behind closed doors. There are plenty of kids who are currently in yeshiva and looking the part, but also engaging in all forms of illicit activities including drugs and chilul shabbos. Many of these kids will now feel emboldened to join a "community" of like minded kids. Etc etc etc.

Chop off the limb to save the body, I get that concept even if I don't agree with it. But what about anything connected to that limb? This has consequences reaching far beyond the kids that were physically being mechalel shabbos at the  lake, and I don't think anyone thought about this beyond how it would affect the protesters and the protestees.

My 2 cents.

Lakewood shabbos DO (singing kah echsof in the park, while smoking electric cigarettes using a shabbos switch

Confirmed:
Grodnoking (Need a shabbos switch for my Ecig, who can bring one?)

Probable:

Impossible:
henche


תניא פרק ל"ב

ומ"ש בגמ' שמי שרואה בחבירו שחטא מצוה לשנאותו וגם לומר לרבו שישנאהו. היינו בחבירו בתורה ומצות וכבר קיים בו מצות הוכח תוכיח את עמיתך עם שאתך בתורה ובמצות ואעפ"כ לא שב מחטאו כמ"ש בס' חרדים

 אבל מי שאינו חבירו ואינו מקורב אצלו הנה ע"ז אמר הלל הזקן הוי מתלמידיו של אהרן אוהב שלום וכו' אוהב את הבריות ומקרבן לתורה. לומר שאף הרחוקים מתורת ה' ועבודתו ולכן נקראי' בשם בריות בעלמא צריך למשכן בחבלי עבותו' אהבה וכולי האי ואולי יוכל לקרבן לתורה ועבודת ה' והן לא לא הפסיד שכר מצות אהבת ריעים

וגם המקורבים אליו והוכיחם ולא שבו מעונותיהם שמצוה לשנאותם מצוה לאהבם ג"כ ושתיהן הן אמת שנאה מצד הרע שבהם ואהבה מצד בחי' הטוב הגנוז שבהם שהוא ניצוץ אלקות שבתוכם המחיה נפשם האלקית וגם לעורר רחמים בלבו עליה כי היא בבחי' גלות בתוך הרע מס"א הגובר עליה ברשעי' והרחמנות מבטלת השנאה ומעוררת האהבה כנודע ממ"ש ליעקב אשר פדה את אברהם [ולא אמר דה"עה תכלית שנאה שנאתים וגו' אלא על המינים והאפיקורסים שאין להם חלק באלהי ישראל כדאיתא בגמרא ר"פ ט"ז דשבת]:

« Last edited by yesitsme on May 21, 2015, 12:17:47 PM »

Author Topic: Lakewood Shabbos rally  (Read 150516 times)

Offline Freddie

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #120 on: May 17, 2015, 08:31:42 PM »
Did the carolers -- er, I mean zemiros singers -- look like this? http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3157/3116535647_c810a560ae_z.jpg?zz=1

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #121 on: May 17, 2015, 08:33:15 PM »
Did the carolers -- er, I mean zemiros singers -- look like this? http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3157/3116535647_c810a560ae_z.jpg?zz=1
no they have beards and black hats
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Sport

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #122 on: May 17, 2015, 08:33:18 PM »
Sometimes the only way to drive home that point is by reminding people that these are not "some virus infected dog" rather they are good kids, they can even be yours...
I know, my post was commentary on how sad it is that that is necessary. Besides, unfortunately, many of these people wouldnt act too diffrently if it was their own child.

Offline rileywiles23

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #123 on: May 17, 2015, 08:46:35 PM »

When there is a epidemic you have to isolate the patient even if its not his fault. I think they view kids going off the derech now as an epidemic and and therefore they must be isolated so that other kids shouldn't be chapped by them.
The so called experts had their chance and failed miserably, now its time to isolate them
I have tremendous rachmonos on them and their families but as i said when there is a epidemic you to have actually use  unkind methods to stop it.
Chazal say Kol ha'mekayem nefesh achas m'yisrael k'ilu kayem Kol Haoilam" but you say isolate them.  Where do you see that the so called experts failed ? There are b"h many children that have been helped back on track. Unfortunately, there are many that continue to drop out, and fall. Where did you pick up this epidemic rhetoric from, and what does unkind methods have to do with epidemic ?! You don't make and sense....
Life is as good as you make it...

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #124 on: May 17, 2015, 09:14:02 PM »
I know, my post was commentary on how sad it is that that is necessary. Besides, unfortunately, many of these people wouldnt act too diffrently if it was their own child.
I'm not so sure about that, Somehow when your own kid is involved you don't hear so much about "painful methods"...

Offline elit

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #125 on: May 17, 2015, 09:15:49 PM »
I'm not so sure about that, Somehow when your own kid is involved you don't hear so much about "painful methods"...
Unfortunately that's not always true

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #126 on: May 17, 2015, 09:20:10 PM »
I'm not so sure about that, Somehow when your own kid is involved you don't hear so much about "painful methods"...
When its your kid you get to actually understand the situation as opposed to those who don't have kids in that situation nor do they know anyone in that situation and they just talk as if they are experts
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #127 on: May 17, 2015, 09:24:04 PM »
Unfortunately that's not always true
Yes there are such sad situations unfortunately
At least most of those making these comments are just naive as was seen repeatedly throughout this thread and I've seen it many more times
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Sport

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #128 on: May 17, 2015, 09:54:50 PM »

I'm not so sure about that, Somehow when your own kid is involved you don't hear so much about "painful methods"...
Unfortunately it's true, I've seen it too many times.

Offline Fish Tank

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #129 on: May 17, 2015, 10:10:30 PM »
When its your kid you get to actually understand the situation as opposed to those who don't have kids in that situation nor do they know anyone in that situation and they just talk as if they are experts
+100

Offline rileywiles23

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #130 on: May 17, 2015, 10:20:12 PM »
Here's another clip I came across...
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Offline yakrot

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #131 on: May 17, 2015, 10:22:19 PM »
Here's another clip I came across...
Nebach

Offline rileywiles23

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #132 on: May 17, 2015, 10:37:57 PM »
Life is as good as you make it...

Offline dudi

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #133 on: May 17, 2015, 10:39:00 PM »
Just saying I have seen this happen in the past in RBS, Israel it ended up with a guy beaten up with a baseball bat cops all over the place and shul windows all broken

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #134 on: May 17, 2015, 10:41:48 PM »
Just saying I have seen this happen in the past in RBS, Israel it ended up with a guy beaten up with a baseball bat cops all over the place and shul windows all broken
Definitely headed in that direction
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline flyingace

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #135 on: May 17, 2015, 11:26:19 PM »
Just read the whole thread. Really painful on all sides. I think the reason for the current "rally" is that the issue has grown too large to just "look away". What do you tell your kids when they walk past, Shabbos after Shabbos, and see blatant chillul Shabbos?! Are we really supposed to tolerate chillul Shabbos in public without any kind of response?

Offline Freddie

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #136 on: May 17, 2015, 11:29:16 PM »
Just read the whole thread. Really painful on all sides. I think the reason for the current "rally" is that the issue has grown too large to just "look away". What do you tell your kids when they walk past, Shabbos after Shabbos, and see blatant chillul Shabbos?! Are we really supposed to tolerate chillul Shabbos in public without any kind of response?

If they were so worried about what to tell their kids, WHY DID THEY BRING THEIR KIDS TO THAT BALAGAN?

Offline yakrot

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #137 on: May 17, 2015, 11:29:50 PM »
Just read the whole thread. Really painful on all sides. I think the reason for the current "rally" is that the issue has grown too large to just "look away". What do you tell your kids when they walk past, Shabbos after Shabbos, and see blatant chillul Shabbos?! Are we really supposed to tolerate chillul Shabbos in public without any kind of response?
I once heard an interesting thought in regards to the many macho's made in eretz yisroel about chillul shabbos. The purpose is not to change the action of those being mechallel shabbos but to make sure that one does not become desensitized to the big deal that it is.

Offline flyingace

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #138 on: May 17, 2015, 11:33:06 PM »
If they were so worried about what to tell their kids, WHY DID THEY BRING THEIR KIDS TO THAT BALAGAN?
Exactly for that reason! The kids have been seeing it ! Now they see that their parents are protesting. I am not saying this is the "answer", just that I can understand the need for the community to make such a statement.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #139 on: May 17, 2015, 11:33:28 PM »
I once heard an interesting thought in regards to the many macho's made in eretz yisroel about chillul shabbos. The purpose is not to change the action of those being mechallel shabbos but to make sure that one does not become desensitized to the big deal that it is.
So that those making the Mechaah can say Ani Es Nafshi Hitzalti and let the rest go to...?