Lakewood Shabbos rally

[Freddie]

Just to give a little perspective, yes, there have been times in Jewish history when leadership made the painful choice of amputating a limb to save the body. Heck, every time you daven shemona esrei and say l'malshinim is an example.

What I think some of us are forgetting is that those ostracized parties were actual movements with deep ideology, not a bunch of kids floundering at life.

So too when someone referenced that the point of protests in E"Y against chilul shabbos was to keep it from becoming the norm rather than to actually change the behavior of the shabbos violators... nu, perfect example. That was about institutionalized chilul shabbos by adults with power -- people who run the bus schedules and who own stores and malls.

My point is that you don't shoot a bazooka at a housefly.

Oh, doodle, and as far as your hypothetical question about these kids raping people, go find out how many of them were raped or molested (by frum people.) And doodle, yes I really love you too EVEN THOUGH you are frum. 

[tjak]

It's giving up to switch from being a loving person and making things for them to making a rally and marching past them (or shows that the original face was a fake)
You're wrong though and if he believes that so is he, these kids are way more stubborn and most of them have nothing to lose - they will definitely outlast them at this game and they will win. I agree that there may be a concept of Chayecha Kodmim and if we are left with no option but to push them away to protect ourselves then Das Torah would tell us that but there are many many more options and we aren't even dealing with an issue of Chayecha Kodmim cause with proper Chinuch you wouldn't have to worry about your own children seeing this.

I don't have an issue listening to Das Torah, I have an issue listening to people claiming they are quoting Das Torah - something that unfortunately happens way too often

If a parent has to come to throwing a child out of the house for the sake of the other children does that mean they don't love their child? No, sometimes even if it hurts you gotta do something cause it's the right thing to do. Just because he's pro this doesn't make him a fake, it means unfortunately he had to come on to agreeing that we have to look at the greater good.
About outlasting them I don't think so, they're there cause it's a good place to chill. If every shabbos the people you despise come make a kumzits there it loses it's chill. So for the first couple times it's fun to smoke and take videos in their faces but then it slowly loses it's fun. And slowly they'll find a new place to chill and hopefully it would be in a more private venue. And maybe this is the perfect time for someone to open up a place for them to chill on shabbos afternoon.
Now for your problem of just give proper chinuch. I'm no master in that field but maybe this is the way to show children the holiness shabbos. Everyone coming out and protesting for the sake of shabbos. You definitely see in the Torah the concept of  people being Moche.     

[elit]

Just to give a little perspective, yes, there have been times in Jewish history when leadership made the painful choice of amputating a limb to save the body. Heck, every time you daven shemona esrei and say l'malshinim is an example.

What I think some of us are forgetting is that those ostracized parties were actual movements with deep ideology, not a bunch of kids floundering at life.

So too when someone referenced that the point of protests in E"Y against chilul shabbos was to keep it from becoming the norm rather than to actually change the behavior of the shabbos violators... nu, perfect example. That was about institutionalized chilul shabbos by adults with power -- people who run the bus schedules and who own stores and malls.

My point is that you don't shoot a bazooka at a housefly.

Oh, doodle, and as far as your hypothetical question about these kids raping people, go find out how many of them were raped or molested (by frum people.) And doodle, yes I really love you too EVEN THOUGH you are frum. 

+1 on everything you said. Just to emphasize the reason almost every single one of them is there is because they suffered (in a variety of different ways) at the hands of other "frum" people. The focus and energy should b on on that "epidemic" not chasing away symptoms of that "diesease". However when you see these stories it just so deprsseing to see how far we are from fixing the problem.

[AsherO]

+10000
IN THE DAYS OF CHAZAL EVERY ONE OF THESE KIDS WOULD BE STONED TO DEATH.

In the days of Chazal if a Beis Din killed even one person every 70 years they'd be considered a cruel B"D...

Maybe you need to stop projecting your zealotry on Chazal.

I also don't see how you can equate rape, a mishpat and sin against another person, to Shabbos, an edus/ois, and transgression against g-d.

[Sport]

Now for your problem of just give proper chinuch. I'm no master in that field but maybe this is the way to show children the holiness shabbos. Everyone coming out and protesting for the sake of shabbos. You definitely see in the Torah the concept of  people being Moche.     

How exactly does this show the holiness of Shabbos?
If this protest is for the kid on the fence If anything it will reinforce the perception in a kid's mind that we are intolerant of people that are diffrent than us and drive hime further.

[yitrap]

If a parent has to come to throwing a child out of the house for the sake of the other children does that mean they don't love their child? No, sometimes even if it hurts you gotta do something cause it's the right thing to do. Just because he's pro this doesn't make him a fake, it means unfortunately he had to come on to agreeing that we have to look at the greater good.
About outlasting them I don't think so, they're there cause it's a good place to chill. If every shabbos the people you despise come make a kumzits there it loses it's chill. So for the first couple times it's fun to smoke and take videos in their faces but then it slowly loses it's fun. And slowly they'll find a new place to chill and hopefully it would be in a more private venue. And maybe this is the perfect time for someone to open up a place for them to chill on shabbos afternoon.
Now for your problem of just give proper chinuch. I'm no master in that field but maybe this is the way to show children the holiness shabbos. Everyone coming out and protesting for the sake of shabbos. You definitely see in the Torah the concept of  people being Moche.     

You don't taunt your child about the fact that you kicked him out, the protest whatever way you cut it is not an expression of love it's the opposite and if any of them heard that he backs it they would lose all form of trust he ever had with them.

They may have gone there cause it was a good place to chill but most of these kids are angry rebellious stubborn kids, it may be way easier to go OTD today but it still takes courage and character and I will put money down they outlast the protests just to spite.

You're making a Machoe that you don't want your sheltered kids to see people being mechalel shabbos by bringing them to a park where people are being mechalel shabbos to teach them how holy shabbos is (while indirectly teaching them that they are bad people that should be shunned) why not just sit them down and teach them how special shabbos is...

[tjak]

How exactly does this show the holiness of Shabbos?
If this protest is for the kid on the fence If anything it will reinforce the perception in a kid's mind that we are intolerant of people that are diffrent than us and drive hime further.

Who said this is for the kid on the fence, I think it's to show we don't tolerate chillul shabbos. And yes if 50 to 100 people come out every week to be Moche chillul shabbos in public I think that is sanctifying shabbos. 

[yitrap]

Who said this is for the kid on the fence, I think it's to show we don't tolerate chillul shabbos. And yes if 50 to 100 people come out every week to be Moche chillul shabbos in public I think that is sanctifying shabbos.

At what cost?!? Sanctify shabbos without pushing other jews farther away.

[tjak]

At what cost?!? Sanctify shabbos without pushing other jews farther away.

And the problem you have that doing this might push them away farther is not for me and you to decide which one overrides, that has to be left to das Torah to which my understanding they had here.

[Sport]

Who said this is for the kid on the fence, I think it's to show we don't tolerate chillul shabbos. And yes if 50 to 100 people come out every week to be Moche chillul shabbos in public I think that is sanctifying shabbos.

Upthread it was mentioned that this was for the kids on the fence.
So why dont they come out to Long island and protest?  Plenty of chilul shabbos going on out here. And once theyre at it let them protest the  intermarriage that goes on out here.

[tjak]

Upthread it was mentioned that this was for the kids on the fence.
So why dont they come out to Long island and protest?  Plenty of chilul shabbos going on out here. And once theyre at it let them protest the  intermarriage that goes on out here.

I don't see how this will help kids on the fence, and I don't think that's what it's about.
In lkwd when formally frum kids are sitting in public doing things against Halacha, you have to be able to tell your kids something. And obviously it was decided by greater people than me that this is what we should show are children. In Long Island are kids don't see it so we don't have to answer to them.

[Sport]

I don't see how this will help kids on the fence, and I don't think that's what it's about.
In lkwd when formally frum kids are sitting in public doing things against Halacha, you have to be able to tell your kids something. And obviously it was decided by greater people than me that this is what we should show are children. In Long Island are kids don't see it so we don't have to answer to them.

So let me get this straight, if they lived in long island they would protest its they donr protest here only because their kids dont witness the chillul shabos.
By the way, you keep saying it was decided by people greater than us, yet you dont provide any source of this.

[tjak]

So let me get this straight, if they lived in long island they would protest its they donr protest here only because their kids dont witness the chillul shabos.
By the way, you keep saying it was decided by people greater than us, yet you dont provide any source of this.

I keep saying it was decided by greater people than us because that's what I heard and that's my current understanding. If you prove me wrong I will retract a lot of what I'm saying. Do you have anyone who's openly against it?

[Sport]

I keep saying it was decided by greater people than us because that's what I heard and that's my current understanding. If you prove me wrong I will retract a lot of what I'm saying. Do you have anyone who's openly against it?

I dont need anyone to come out openly against it. I'm sure what my rebbie's stance on this would be if I asked him.

[elit]

I keep saying it was decided by greater people than us because that's what I heard and that's my current understanding. If you prove me wrong I will retract a lot of what I'm saying. Do you have anyone who's openly against it?

I and (i suspect most others here) have rebbeim and i have no doubt my rebbeim would be unequivocally against it dont even have to waste my breath asking

[elit]

I dont need anyone to come out openly against it. I'm sure what my rebbie's stance on this would be if I asked him.

Beat me to it

[elit]

I keep saying it was decided by greater people than us because that's what I heard and that's my current understanding. If you prove me wrong I will retract a lot of what I'm saying. Do you have anyone who's openly against it?

And we need someone to be openly against it b4 someone openly endorsing it this bad been going on for two weeks now with hundreds of people and you can't find some pubic endorsement?

[tjak]

I dont need anyone to come out openly against it. I'm sure what my rebbie's stance on this would be if I asked him.

I and (i suspect most others here) have rebbeim and i have no doubt my rebbeim would be unequivocally against it dont even have to waste my breath asking

And I'm pretty sure that my Rebbie would be pro it. And he has an understanding of these kids being that he was a successful Rebbie in a yeshiva that deals with these type of kids.

[elit]

I keep saying it was decided by greater people than us because that's what I heard and that's my current understanding. If you prove me wrong I will retract a lot of what I'm saying. Do you have anyone who's openly against it?

And I'm pretty sure that my Rebbie would be pro it. And he has an understanding of these kids being that he was a successful Rebbie in a yeshiva that deals with these type of kids.

So why would you charge if your Rebbe is pro it?
#skeptical

[tjak]

So why would you charge if your Rebbe is pro it?
#skeptical

I said if you prove me wrong I would change. Proving me wrong would be if my Rebbie isn't pro it.