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I hear both sides. While I am fairly certain that this will ultimately have a negative effect on the kids that were there, I understand that this protest was never intended to be for their benefit but rather to protest against public chilul shabbos. Is that a fair trade-off?

I did speak with a rabbi who I consider to be one of the world's foremost experts on helping OTD kids (and I have personal experience with way too many of them), and he was vehemently against it. He felt that a protest like this will cause significantly more kids to go off, as it now created an us-vs-them mentality that until now only simmered below the surface but is now being forced on them.

12 years ago I was ordered to leave Lakewood because of a (in hindsight) very trivial incident. Do you know what that type of ostracization does to an angry teenager? It makes them angrier and more eager to do the things that caused them to be ostracized in the first place. Some of these kids may have been only testing the waters, hanging out with friends who are much more brazen than them right now. Now they feel like they there's no return. Some of these kids have friends that they will now convince to join them who otherwise were only being mechalel shabbos behind closed doors. There are plenty of kids who are currently in yeshiva and looking the part, but also engaging in all forms of illicit activities including drugs and chilul shabbos. Many of these kids will now feel emboldened to join a "community" of like minded kids. Etc etc etc.

Chop off the limb to save the body, I get that concept even if I don't agree with it. But what about anything connected to that limb? This has consequences reaching far beyond the kids that were physically being mechalel shabbos at the  lake, and I don't think anyone thought about this beyond how it would affect the protesters and the protestees.

My 2 cents.

Lakewood shabbos DO (singing kah echsof in the park, while smoking electric cigarettes using a shabbos switch

Confirmed:
Grodnoking (Need a shabbos switch for my Ecig, who can bring one?)

Probable:

Impossible:
henche


תניא פרק ל"ב

ומ"ש בגמ' שמי שרואה בחבירו שחטא מצוה לשנאותו וגם לומר לרבו שישנאהו. היינו בחבירו בתורה ומצות וכבר קיים בו מצות הוכח תוכיח את עמיתך עם שאתך בתורה ובמצות ואעפ"כ לא שב מחטאו כמ"ש בס' חרדים

 אבל מי שאינו חבירו ואינו מקורב אצלו הנה ע"ז אמר הלל הזקן הוי מתלמידיו של אהרן אוהב שלום וכו' אוהב את הבריות ומקרבן לתורה. לומר שאף הרחוקים מתורת ה' ועבודתו ולכן נקראי' בשם בריות בעלמא צריך למשכן בחבלי עבותו' אהבה וכולי האי ואולי יוכל לקרבן לתורה ועבודת ה' והן לא לא הפסיד שכר מצות אהבת ריעים

וגם המקורבים אליו והוכיחם ולא שבו מעונותיהם שמצוה לשנאותם מצוה לאהבם ג"כ ושתיהן הן אמת שנאה מצד הרע שבהם ואהבה מצד בחי' הטוב הגנוז שבהם שהוא ניצוץ אלקות שבתוכם המחיה נפשם האלקית וגם לעורר רחמים בלבו עליה כי היא בבחי' גלות בתוך הרע מס"א הגובר עליה ברשעי' והרחמנות מבטלת השנאה ומעוררת האהבה כנודע ממ"ש ליעקב אשר פדה את אברהם [ולא אמר דה"עה תכלית שנאה שנאתים וגו' אלא על המינים והאפיקורסים שאין להם חלק באלהי ישראל כדאיתא בגמרא ר"פ ט"ז דשבת]:

« Last edited by yesitsme on May 21, 2015, 12:17:47 PM »

Author Topic: Lakewood Shabbos rally  (Read 150481 times)

Offline Moshe123

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #280 on: May 18, 2015, 03:04:05 PM »
Which Wallerstein said this?

Zecharia

Offline Aj3042

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #281 on: May 18, 2015, 03:08:20 PM »
This whole discussion is meaningless, until the age of 20 there is no Din of עונשין...
Whoa whoa totally not true. After 13 (or 12 for a girl) a person has the regular dinim in relation to how we act. That concept of 20 is said to punishment in shamayim. Besides, it's far from universally held. It comes from a rashi/medrash/aggadata Gemara and many hold its not to be taken on face value.
I wonder if you are also including the 11 year old kids in this
No but 13 year olds are. Which brings out the point-Halacha in this case is absolute. No sob stories are accepted. It is what it is.
There's no excuses for what halacha? As freddi succinctly highlighted we,re not eating their shcita, relying on their eidus,... So what are you applying this to? The right to give tochacha? Make a macha? Speak lashon harah? I would venture tob
 say for those nirdaf has everything to do with it
As I said, I'm pointing out the severity of it. If they were raping עריות in public would you take it like this, making all sorts of excuses. No you wouldn't. Well this is even worse. When something like public chillul shabbos is going on you don't sit and make up enlightened excuses why they're doing it.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #282 on: May 18, 2015, 03:11:55 PM »
Whoa whoa totally not true. After 13 (or 12 for a girl) a person has the regular dinim in relation to how we act. That concept of 20 is said to punishment in shamayim. Besides, it's far from universally held. It comes from a rashi/medrash/aggadata Gemara and many hold its not to be taken on face value.No but 13 year olds are. Which brings out the point-Halacha in this case is absolute. No sob stories are accepted. It is what it is.As I said, I'm pointing out the severity of it. If they were raping עריות in public would you take it like this, making all sorts of excuses. No you wouldn't. Well this is even worse. When something like public chillul shabbos is going on you don't sit and make up enlightened excuses why they're doing it.
Who is making excuses for anyone? Everyone agrees that being Mechallel Shabos is wrong, no one is excusing it, the discussion is whether being Merachek kids who are being Mechallel Shabbos is the way to go about it...

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #283 on: May 18, 2015, 03:12:24 PM »


No but 13 year olds are. Which brings out the point-Halacha in this case is absolute. No sob stories are accepted.
what about 13 year olds who were once 11 year olds are they considered tinoik shenishba?

Would you have same attitude if it was your kid?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Aj3042

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #284 on: May 18, 2015, 03:14:33 PM »
what about 13 year olds who were once 11 year olds are they considered tinoik shenishba?

Would you have same attitude if it was your kid?
No. Straight and simple. The parameters of tinoik shenishba are well defined. Someone who grew up in a frum home is not a tinoik shenishba according to anyone.
As for your last question, you are appealing to emotion rather than logic, and Halacha is dictated by logic rather than emotion.

Offline elit

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #285 on: May 18, 2015, 03:14:47 PM »
Whoa whoa totally not true. After 13 (or 12 for a girl) a person has the regular dinim in relation to how we act. That concept of 20 is said to punishment in shamayim. Besides, it's far from universally held. It comes from a rashi/medrash/aggadata Gemara and many hold its not to be taken on face value.No but 13 year olds are. Which brings out the point-Halacha in this case is absolute. No sob stories are accepted. It is what it is.As I said, I'm pointing out the severity of it. If they were raping עריות in public would you take it like this, making all sorts of excuses. No you wouldn't. Well this is even worse. When something like public chillul shabbos is going on you don't sit and make up enlightened excuses why they're doing it.
What i find very ironic about your position is that many of those kids have been raped! yet you keep saying they have no excuse if they were raping would i say the same?? wheres your horror about the rapingb you speak so strongly about? I don't see any outcry about the raping. All i see is the checkpoint of the bandwagons anytime something like that comes out.

Offline elit

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #286 on: May 18, 2015, 03:15:24 PM »
No. Straight and simple. The parameters of tinoik shenishba are well defined. Someone who grew up in a frum home is not a tinoik shenishba according to anyone.
As for your last question, you are appealing to emotion rather than logic, and Halacha is dictated by logic rather than emotion.
You live in a very black and white world.

Offline Aj3042

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #287 on: May 18, 2015, 03:16:12 PM »
What i find very ironic about your position is that many of those kids have been raped! yet you keep saying they have no excuse if they were raping would i say the same?? wheres your horror about the rapingb you speak so strongly about? I don't see any outcry about the raping. All i see is the checkpoint of the bandwagons anytime something like that comes out.
I don't get you. My point is that what we happened doesn't excuse public chillul shabbos. Now if what you say happened then they should be dealt with (how you know it happened to these people is beyond me). That doesn't come at the expense of public chillul shabbos. End of story.

Offline Baruch

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #288 on: May 18, 2015, 03:16:50 PM »

Would you have same attitude if it was your kid?
Since when in a logical conversation, does someone bring up how one would feel if they were biased?

Do we ask a dayan how he would feel if he took shochad?


(I in no way intend to minimize the pain of the parents. I'm just pointing out that it really doesn't make sense to ask someone making a logical argument, how he would feel if he was biased)

Offline Aj3042

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #289 on: May 18, 2015, 03:16:59 PM »
You live in a very black and white world.
Nope it's more like a world where Halacha isn't fluid and dictated by modern views and feelings.

Offline Aj3042

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #290 on: May 18, 2015, 03:17:27 PM »
Since when in a logical conversation, does someone bring up how one would feel if they were biased?

Do we ask a dayan how he would feel if he took shochad?


(I in no way intend to minimize the pain of the parents. I'm just pointing out that it really doesn't make sense to ask someone making a logical argument, how he would feel if he was biased)
You just took the words straight out of my mouth. Well said, which is why I responded in bold is this sums up what's going on here-emotion against Halacha.

Offline elit

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #291 on: May 18, 2015, 03:19:18 PM »
Nope it's more like a world where Halacha isn't fluid and dictated by modern views and feelings.
Nobody said  it was but you keep statingb dune very complex Halachic issues as simple black and white matters which it definitely isn't
Eta: forgot to add: end of story.

Offline doodle

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #292 on: May 18, 2015, 03:19:35 PM »
Nope it's more like a world where Halacha isn't fluid and dictated by modern views and feelings.
+10000
Salt Is Good

Offline Aj3042

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #293 on: May 18, 2015, 03:20:11 PM »
Nobody said  it was but you keep statingb dune very complex Halachic issues as simple black and white matters which it definitely isn't
Flaunting public chillul shabbos is not at all complex. It's one of those areas that's straight up.
Now HOW TO DEAL with these kids isn't black and white at all. But protesting their public chillul shabbos is.

Offline Freddie

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #294 on: May 18, 2015, 03:20:30 PM »
What makes me laugh (or nauseates me) is you guys who must feel so threatened by a bunch of kids who are failing at life. You're invoking dinim that apply to real apikursim. What are they? A bunch of boki b'Shas Conservative rabbis from 100 years ago? You'd think they were Spinoza or Mendelson or at least Marcus Jastrow the way you're coming out against them.

How is it different than maaseh Zimri? Exactly! Zimri was a nasi l'sheivet, an adam gadol. He had tens of thousands of followers. He wasn't a teenage kid who's illiterate in three languages and can barely get a minimum wage job.

When you start talking about their shechita is pasul... not mitztaref to a minyan... give me a break. What? One of these kids asked for Maftir Yonah?

Guys, get a grip.

Offline Aj3042

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #295 on: May 18, 2015, 03:21:54 PM »
What makes me laugh (or nauseates me) is you guys who must feel so threatened by a bunch of kids who are failing at life. You're invoking dinim that apply to real apikursim. What are they? A bunch of boki b'Shas Conservative rabbis from 100 years ago? You'd think they were Spinoza or Mendelson or at least Marcus Jastrow the way you're coming out against them.

How is it different than maaseh Zimri? Exactly! Zimri was a nasi l'sheivet, an adam gadol. He had tens of thousands of followers. He wasn't a teenage kid who's illiterate in three languages and can barely get a minimum wage job.

When you start talking about their shechita is pasul... not mitztaref to a minyan... give me a break. What? One of these kids asked for Maftir Yonah?

Guys, get a grip.
Excuse me public chillul shabbos is a threat to all yidden and the Torah. Makes no difference who's doing it.

Offline yesitsme

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #296 on: May 18, 2015, 03:22:40 PM »
There's הרגש and חשבן, Hergesh is very important but without Cheshbon it's nothing
["-"]

Offline Aj3042

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #297 on: May 18, 2015, 03:23:01 PM »
There's הרגש and חשבן, Hergesh is very important but without Cheshbon it's nothing
Exactly.

Offline elit

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #298 on: May 18, 2015, 03:23:01 PM »
What makes me laugh (or nauseates me) is you guys who must feel so threatened by a bunch of kids who are failing at life. You're invoking dinim that apply to real apikursim. What are they? A bunch of boki b'Shas Conservative rabbis from 100 years ago? You'd think they were Spinoza or Mendelson or at least Marcus Jastrow the way you're coming out against them.

How is it different than maaseh Zimri? Exactly! Zimri was a nasi l'sheivet, an adam gadol. He had tens of thousands of followers. He wasn't a teenage kid who's illiterate in three languages and can barely get a minimum wage job.

When you start talking about their shechita is pasul... not mitztaref to a minyan... give me a break. What? One of these kids asked for Maftir Yonah?

Guys, get a grip.
+100 wow a conversation where i am agreeing to everything you're saying....
The answer is it's s lot easier to attack b the kids then to focus on. the real issues...

Offline Aj3042

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #299 on: May 18, 2015, 03:23:49 PM »
+100 wow a conversation where i am agreeing to everything you're saying....
The answer is it's s lot easier to attack b the kids then to focus on. the real issues...
Last I checked public chillul shabbos is as real an issue as you'll ever find.